World's Worst Weather? Really?

[nartreb]

This is preposterous. If you are going to make, or repeat, a claim, be prepared to back it up.

If you think Mt W has the worst weather in the world, define what you mean by "worst weather" (eg, avg daily temp change * avg yearly temp change * avg wind speed * cloudy days /yr * inches precipitation /yr *...). Pick any formula you like. I'll bet I can find another spot on the surface of the earth that has worse weather AS YOU DEFINE IT.

[Obviously, I will not count formulas like "highest wind speed as measured by anemometer in 1934". I'm not concerned with modes of measurement or specific dates, as long as decent estimates are available and dates are within the last century or two.]

That's all leaving a major question begging: "worst weather" could mean so many different things that it's meaningless. Are you OK with the idea of hundreds, maybe thousands of spots that all have the "worst weather in the world"? If so, feel free to say so about Mt W. If not, stop spreading nonsense.

 

[chuck]

Can someone get some comparisons on Mt. Washington on different weather categories vs. another Mountain or spot and compare more like Grouseking's post. "Worst" could mean Average wind , temp etc... but it could also mean highest/lowest temp, wind etc... not just comparing averages.

 

[jrbren]

From what I understand, relatively speaking, Mt Everest's weather isn't all that bad.

Relative to some other mountain ranges in the world I suspect that is correct. I would be interested comparing weather for the St. Alias range in Alaska with its maritime location vs. Washington and some of the Hymalia. New Zealand mts ? Denali ? Southern Andes ? Mt. Waddington BC ?

Nonetheless, all you really need to take from the slogan "the worlds worst weather" is that it sux most of the time, be ready for it. Given its proximity to Megaopolis, I have no problem with that claim being made. I think the claim is based on wind speeds and persentage of cloud cover, which is much less sunny then some of the worlds larger mountains.

 

[grouseking]

I shall repeat my claim and back it up. Or perhaps clear it up and make it more understandable as it might have been tough to read. There are places that have colder temperatures. There are places that average more snow throughout the year. But you are hard pressed to find a location that has the variability of weather that Mount Washington has. Such as....

Extreme temperatures, rain, snow,fog, ground blizzards, severe riming, thunderstorms, intense lightning hail, hurricane force winds (often topping 100 mph, especially in winter).

Places with severe weather like this can see all this, but Mount Washington's weather changes so drastically that it has to have the worst weather. So that is my definition. It has the worst weather because it can literally change in a few minutes. Give you more examples.

One May in the late 90s....Memorial Day weekend....blizzard!!! They had over 100 inches of snow that month. Not bad for the unofficial start of summer.

Better example....Yesterday winds reached 80 mph and today it is basically calm. That is quite variable if I say so myself. There are times when winds top 100 mph for days and then a warm front moves through, the wind drops to dead calm and the temp recovers, all in a matter of hours. I think observers on the summit know what I'm talking about better than I do, since they live up there.

As for the world record wind...231 mph . And I quote the article...

"After the wind measurement, the anemometer was run through a number of tests by the National Weather Bureau and the historic measurement of 231 mph was confirmed to be a valid reading."

You can't beat that.


There is so much more I could say, but I think I'll stop for now.

I did find an interesting site on Antarctic Climate , proving what I said earlier about other places having colder weather than Mount Washington. But again, the weather there isn't what I would consider extreme by the way we are trying to define the worst weather in the world. More as I find cool websites later.

Defending Mount Washington to the death (snicker)

grouseking

 

[Jim lombard]

This is preposterous. If you are going to make, or repeat, a claim, be prepared to back it up.

If you think Mt W has the worst weather in the world, define what you mean by "worst weather" (eg, avg daily temp change * avg yearly temp change * avg wind speed * cloudy days /yr * inches precipitation /yr *...). Pick any formula you like. I'll bet I can find another spot on the surface of the earth that has worse weather AS YOU DEFINE IT.

[Obviously, I will not count formulas like "highest wind speed as measured by anemometer in 1934". I'm not concerned with modes of measurement or specific dates, as long as decent estimates are available and dates are within the last century or two.]

That's all leaving a major question begging: "worst weather" could mean so many different things that it's meaningless. Are you OK with the idea of hundreds, maybe thousands of spots that all have the "worst weather in the world"? If so, feel free to say so about Mt W. If not, stop spreading nonsense.

Mt Washington can back it up right here:
Weather Archive

Check out January 14, 2004 when the temperature dipped to -44 with a windchill of over -100!
Many many days when the wind blew more than 100-mph
Freezing fog, blizzards, hurricane force winds are pretty normal

If you can show me another mountain that has documented this, let me know

 

[nartreb]

I shall be happy to debunk your claim, but please tell me how to compare among all the different factors you list.

"Extreme temperatures, rain, snow,fog, ground blizzards, severe riming, thunderstorms, intense lightning hail, hurricane force winds (often topping 100 mph, especially in winter)", "100 inches of snow that month", "Yesterday winds reached 80 mph and today it is basically calm", "it can literally change in a few minutes."

"the world record wind... you can't beat that".

Of course I can. The actual world record wind is over 300mph, and that's mostly due to lack of measurements. If peak wind ever experienced is a major factor in your definition of "worst weather", Mt Washington is at risk of losing to half of Kansas. And don't tell me that tornadoes don't count: are you saying tornadoes are good weather?

I think your central point is this:

"you are hard pressed to find a location that has the variability of weather that Mount Washington has"

Oh really? Give me a quantifiable definition of variability, and let's try it.

PS "hard" to find others the same? At least you're backing away from "worst in the world"

 

[Mike P.]

I would think worse would have to have some component involving change of weather, calm & zero is not bad, 75 MPH wind & 75 degrees is not bad, rain & 80 is not bad. While there is no treeline, okay no trees way up north, the fact that trees don't grow on Washington or the North Presidentials or Katahdin for that matter, above 4500 feet, that should be some indication that the climate is pretty bad, out west the treeeline is significantly higher.

Off the cuff, If I was going to list a few places that might have worst weather, I'd look at Patagonia, Ben Nevis & the mountains along the Pacific coast in BC & Alaska. Being near converging weather tracks is a big plus, how water interacts (coastal storms) with this equation I don't think can be underestimated.

If you can go from 40 & calm to below zero & winds excess of 100 MPH winds with rain to snow all in one day, that's bad, really bad.

Ben Nevis at 4409 feet does get it's fair share of fatalities & injuries also & is pretty close to populated areas. As is Rainier & SLC is not far from several mountains, Rainier gets it's share of accidents, apparently the Utahan's are smarted then us easterners.

 

[Mattl]

Tornados are clearly stated by recorders as different than ground winds. They are not even part of measurment, party because it is difficult to measure them and because they are in a different class. Now your comparing Kansas weather? Go ahead and put a normal house on Mount Washington and see which one survives longer. Yes Tornados are intense, but they can happen on most places on earth to a degree, the constant extreme high winds and combinations of all types of weather makes Mount Washington the most extreme place on earth. Unless someone can find somewhere else that has documention, it will stand. -Mattl

 

[Chip]

I have often found the world's worst weather right here on Views From The Top.
Many storms, lot's of wind, severe heat, horrific downpours, updrafts and downdrafts, not to mention thunder and lightning.

HA ! I agree with Neil ! What happened to dvbl ?
You shouldn't drop a stink-bomb like this and just leave the building...

 

[grouseking]

I shall be happy to debunk your claim, but please tell me how to compare among all the different factors you list.

"Extreme temperatures, rain, snow,fog, ground blizzards, severe riming, thunderstorms, intense lightning hail, hurricane force winds (often topping 100 mph, especially in winter)", "100 inches of snow that month", "Yesterday winds reached 80 mph and today it is basically calm", "it can literally change in a few minutes."

"the world record wind... you can't beat that".

Of course I can. The actual world record wind is over 300mph, and that's mostly due to lack of measurements. If peak wind ever experienced is a major factor in your definition of "worst weather", Mt Washington is at risk of losing to half of Kansas. And don't tell me that tornadoes don't count: are you saying tornadoes are good weather?

I think your central point is this:

"you are hard pressed to find a location that has the variability of weather that Mount Washington has"

Oh really? Give me a quantifiable definition of variability, and let's try it.

PS "hard" to find others the same? At least you're backing away from "worst in the world"

I'm not sure what you mean at the beginning. I'm saying that there is high variability in Mount Washington's weather including all of those weather phenomenon that I listed. I'm saying that on any given day, it can be 60 and calm, then rain, thunder, hail, have winds gusts to hurricane force and then have it drop below freezing and have rime/snow with temps in the teens/twenties and winds over hurricane force. Then, the next day it can be clear and calm once again. And its documented. Happens often. Happened this weekend and early this week in fact. Probably gonna happen again on Friday.

As for the tornadoes, I think there is one major difference. Official anemometers meaure wind speed from 33 feet in the air. The strongest doppler radar estimated wind on Earth was the OKC tornado back in 1999 of 318 miles per hour, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't considered a surface wind. According to this article from Science News Online, doppler estimates are taken more than 65 feet off the ground, so I would think that makes all doppler estimates of wind speed not count. Due to friction, I would assume that the winds on the ground...even near a tornado are much weaker. I read somewhere once that its the rapid change of pressure inside and outside the tornado...not the strong winds that really cause the severe damage, but it would be nice if I could find an explanation on that. So I may be wrong, but I think this is why tornado winds don't count.

I just think that Mount Washington has every right to boldly say something like this. There is just too much evidence to back it up. All you need to do is look through the weather archives. Its astounding.

grouseking

 

[Jeff-B]

Of course I can. The actual world record wind is over 300mph, and that's mostly due to lack of measurements.

Your reply itself is full of inaccuracy.
There has yet to be recorded a wind velocity for a tornado which can beat the Mt Washington record, at least for measurements taken the same way.

Hurricane Gilbert had measurements of sustained 200+ taken at 10,000 ft from NOAA air survailence. Perhaps stronger winds were at the surface as well.
But was this a "place"? No, it was out to sea somehwere...

I can believe the Mt Washington data and claim until it is PROVEN elsewhere by logical data.....

 

[Oldsmores]

The Worst Weather on Earth is...

... generally where I happen to be hiking. Seriously, who cares where the worst weather is? I just want to know what it is going to be where I am. From that perspective, the "worst weather" is the weather that's unpredictable. Mt. Washington may not be "worst" in that regard, but it's right up there...

 

[nartreb]

"I'm saying that there is high variability in Mount Washington's weather including all of those weather phenomenon that I listed."

Not just that, your claim is that Mt washington has the "worst" weather.
So you must be comparing Mt washington's weather to the weather in other places. All I am asking is, how are you making that comparison? Which counts more, cold temperature or change in temperature? Windspeed, or change in windspeed? You can't seriously believe that statements like "the weather can change in a minute" or "thunderstorms" only apply to Mt W. (You want thunderstorms? Try Colorado.) You must think that some kind of weighted average of all these factors leads to Mt W coming out on top. You might even be right, but how do you weight the factors? Nobody has yet stated a quantifiable definition of "worst" weather.

I'm not saying we'll all agree on the exact quantitative parameters. But I'm betting that by any reasonable definition, I can find a place where the weather is worse.

Until you can say what you mean by "worst", it's pointless to argue.

 

[Paradox]

I'm not saying we'll all agree on the exact quantitative parameters. But I'm betting that by any reasonable definition, I can find a place where the weather is worse.

But are large numbers of unprepared people likely to find themselves entering the area? Would signs that proclaim the weather to be "really gnarly" be effective?

 

[Puma concolor]

Highest wind speed:

http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arc99/5_15_99/fob1.htm

 

[grouseking]

Extreme temperatures, rain, snow,fog, ground blizzards, severe riming, thunderstorms, intense lightning hail, hurricane force winds (often topping 100 mph, especially in winter).

It has the worst weather because it can literally change in a few minutes.

That sentence is pretty much what I mean. Its a rough definition, but it pretty much drives the point home. All of those weather phenomenon combine and change wildly to make it some of if not the worst weather in the world. Thats my definition for it. And I know that weather can change drastically in a few minutes anywhere across the globe. But if you carefully follow Mount Washington's weather and compare it to any other recording stations (like Mt McKinleys for example) I am willing to bet you that the weather changes will be more severe on Washington. It may be colder on McKinley, there may be more snow, and there will probably be even more blizzards. But as my definition states, and I think that is what Mount Washington is trying to get across, the weather is the worst because it really can change in a very short amount of time.

On a side note...the definition of climate is the prevailing weather conditions for a certain location, averaging temperature, wind, precipitation, percentage of sun/cloud and maybe some others that I'm forgetting. You can find it in the dictionary or any Meteorology/Climatology book. When I look at the average climate for Mount Washington I think, "boy that's extreme". As we know averages aren't supposed to be extreme. They average the extreme to come out with a nu,ber in the middle. And when that number is extreme, you know the weather must be pretty crazy. Average extreme .


Time to go to work. I can't wait to read more responses. Great thread.

grouseking

 

[grouseking]

Highest wind speed:

http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arc99/5_15_99/fob1.htm

Yeah I had a link for that site a few posts ago. If you read thru it, the doppler radar estimates winds above 65 feet, which is not the surface. In fact, "surface winds" are done at 33 feet, so its not surface in the strictest sense.

I think this is why the tornado winds don't count.

grouseking

 

[nartreb]

"Would signs that proclaim the weather to be "really gnarly" be effective?"

Totally separate question. I want to know if it might be *true* that Mt Washington has the "world's worst weather". I doubt it.
What to put on the signs? How about "{number} deaths from exposure since {date}" ?

PS I believe that Mt Washington's wind record is an artifact of having the weather station in operation for so many decades. Long's Peak (not likely to be the windiest peak in the world, just another one that happened to have (briefly) a weather station) recorded 201mph during the single season its station was in operation. Mt Washingon has had about ninety times as many chances to record a freak wind. For a fair comparison, what was the peak wind on Mt Washington last year? (Or better yet, in 1984, when the Long's Peak wind was measured?) A glance at the Mt Washington website tells me that the highest gust recorded there in ANY year other than 1934 was 180 mph. So which mountain really has worse wind, Mt Washington or Long's Peak?

pps "Extreme temperatures, rain, snow,fog, ground blizzards, severe riming, thunderstorms, intense lightning hail, hurricane force winds (often topping 100 mph, especially in winter)."

You've just described thousands of peaks. What makes you think Mt Washington is *worse* than all the others?

 

[grouseking]

"Would signs that proclaim the weather to be "really gnarly" be effective?"

Totally separate question. I want to know if it might be *true* that Mt Washington has the "world's worst weather". I doubt it.
What to put on the signs? How about "{number} deaths from exposure since {date}" ?

PS I believe that Mt Washington's wind record is an artifact of having the weather station in operation for so many decades. Long's Peak (not likely to be the windiest peak in the world, just another one that happened to have (briefly) a weather station) recorded 201mph during the single season its station was in operation. Mt Washingon has had about ninety times as many chances to record a freak wind. For a fair comparison, what was the peak wind on Mt Washington last year? (Or better yet, in 1984, when the Long's Peak wind was measured?) A glance at the Mt Washington website tells me that the highest gust recorded there in ANY year other than 1934 was 180 mph. So which mountain really has worse wind, Mt Washington or Long's Peak?

pps "Extreme temperatures, rain, snow,fog, ground blizzards, severe riming, thunderstorms, intense lightning hail, hurricane force winds (often topping 100 mph, especially in winter)."

You've just described thousands of peaks. What makes you think Mt Washington is *worse* than all the others?

Just think of how many other winds records MWN could have if they had a anemometer for longer. And I'm sure they will break their own record soon enough, thanks to the fun global warming that we are coming into...since it leads to more extreme weather. Also, its tough to measure wind on Washington because of rime buildup on the instrument, which can severely cut down the wind speed, if the summit crew doesn't clean it off. As for other mtns like Longs Peak ( I believe it was 1981 actually, but it doesnt matter) until I see mountains with stronger winds or places with a stronger wind, I'll still hold onto my beliefs. Now I'm really late for work.

grouseking

 

[Paradox]

I think the weather on Mt. Washington is bad enough to turn it into the worlds worst semantic quagmire. This is because there isn't likely to be any agreed upon definition of "worst weather".

Do we define it as highest recorded surface wind speed? Well I guess Mt. Washington has this one. However, as some have correctly observed, tornadoes certainly have higher wind speeds. So why is the anemometer the device to be used for wind speed measurement?

If it is coldest temperatures, then other places (Antarctica) have the honors. How about deaths due to weather? Over 1500 died in minutes during the Titanic sinking. The sinking was created by weather conditions even though the wind was calm and the temps were in the 30's. There have been over 1800 deaths related to hurricaine Katrina, so why aren't we discussing the world's worst weather in the U.S. Gulf Coast? As far as I know, there have been no heat related deaths on Mt Washington yet hundreds die each year of heat prostration in the U.S. southern States. If number of deaths from climate exposure is the definition of worst weather, why do millions move to "God's Waiting Room" every year? How about snowfall inches (Aspen or Vail ski resorts), how about rainfall inches (drought? or deluge?)? So much for objective, quantifiable measures.

Now we come to subjective measures like "changeability" or "numbers of neophytes likely to get hurt". Well, Mt Washington ranks right up there in my book, but we can go on with this forever.

Now if you will excuse me, I am engaged in a discussion on the world's greatest guitarist on a blog site (Jimmy Hendrix? Gimme a break!)