Skins with Nordic BC

Question: Can you use skins with Nordic BC skis? Do you?

Well I've been trying to decide whether to buy Nordic Backcountry (Fisher S-Bound's), Teles or ATs for years now...

Yesterday I was snowshoing up Silver Peak (near Lake Tahoe) and everyone had tele gear.

Seeing everyone using skins to go up the steap ridge made me wonder if the scales on the S-Bound would provide enough resistance...the ridge was probably too narrow for heringbones, but lots of striding tracks.

Follow up question....my wife looking down the face says to me...there's no way I'd ski down that with this heavy mush, I'd never be able to turn and end up in a tree... Can one keep skins on to create more friction on the descent?

As long as you can loop the skin over the tip, and get a clip on the tail, then you should be able to use skins on BC skis. I used them last winter on my Rossi BC skis. Normally I don't use them, but they sure saved my butt while breaking trail on the Catamount Trail in the Camels Hump area after the Valentines Day blizzard. And yes, they do slow your descent if you use them going down.

Bluethroatedone said:

Question: Can you use skins with Nordic BC skis? Do you?

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Yes, I use them frequently on my BC skis.

Seeing everyone using skins to go up the steap ridge made me wonder if the scales on the S-Bound would provide enough resistance...the ridge was probably too narrow for heringbones, but lots of striding tracks.

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Skins will outclimb patterns and wax.

Follow up question....my wife looking down the face says to me...there's no way I'd ski down that with this heavy mush, I'd never be able to turn and end up in a tree... Can one keep skins on to create more friction on the descent?

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Yes skins can slow the descent, but they also make it harder to turn. (The extra friction makes it harder to control the ski.) Mohair skins supposedly glide better than nylon. A warning--skins glide very poorly on ice. I've had some nasty crashes when I hit an ice patch with skins on.

Doug

And the S-Bound waxless pattern is notoriously bad for climbing, there are better brands such as Karhu. That's why I got the waxable Outtabounds and use my skins for serious climbing. Backcountry skiing with skins is pretty much standard operating procedure.

And yes, you can keep skins on for the descent. It's not as easy as it might seem; skiing downhill with skins is rather inconsistent feeling. I've used them for downhills from time to time but not generally in spring conditions. I find it more useful in very hard/icy conditions.

I have a pair of Atomic Rainier waxless BC skis (which I bought thanks to advice from Dave Metsky, Pinnah, DougPaul and others here). I bought a pair of BD GlideLite skins for them-no tail clips-they sell them with the clips, but I got mine cheap on eBay. I used them towing a sled into Yosemite on the Glacier Point Road. Nothing real steep. but the difference between the scales and the skins is dramatic. The skins are like having tractor treads instead of snow tires. My experience is limited to a couple of miles on them, but I highly recommend getting a pair. I don't see how you could go wrong with skins.

Two other factors will influence your downhill control with any of the skis discussed here. You should have cable bindings. I like the Volie 3-pin cable for this setup. Secondly you need boots with some tortional stiffness in the sole to give you the ability to pressure the edge of your skis for control on hardpack and ice. Also remember to trim your skins so the metal edges are exposed!

Another curious attribute of putting skins on backcountry skis is that I find I can easily skin up terrain that I cannot easily ski down.

David Metsky said:

And yes, you can keep skins on for the descent. It's not as easy as it might seem; skiing downhill with skins is rather inconsistent feeling. I've used them for downhills from time to time but not generally in spring conditions. I find it more useful in very hard/icy conditions.

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I found out early on that wearing skins on the Down Hill created very inconsistent glide and many times to the point that they were more of a hinderance than an advantage. Even though without them you glide faster the consistency of the glide is way more perdictable. I would suggest that if you feel that you need to have your skins on to slow you down that you might want to try skiing some easier terrain that you can handle first and then work your way up to the more difficult terrain. In drier snow conditions if you want to create some resistence on the downhill try using Swix Extra Blue the WHOLE length of the ski. This will slow the ski down a bit with a consistent glide, without the glide and grab effect that skins give you on the downhill.

cushetunk said:

Another curious attribute of putting skins on backcountry skis is that I find I can easily skin up terrain that I cannot easily ski down.

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Beginners often find this to be true when using just pattern bases or waxes, too.

Doug

skiguy said:

I found out early on that wearing skins on the Down Hill created very inconsistent glide and many times to the point that they were more of a hinderance than an advantage. Even though without them you glide faster the consistency of the glide is way more perdictable.

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I have found using skins on the descent to be ok if I am in consistent powder, but turning is certainly harder. (Edges are generally better for speed contol once you learn how to use them on the terrain in question.) As noted earlier I have executed some nasty crashes when an icy patch "jumped" under my skins...

I would suggest that if you feel that you need to have your skins on to slow you down that you might want to try skiing some easier terrain that you can handle first and then work your way up to the more difficult terrain. In drier snow conditions if you want to create some resistence on the downhill try using Swix Extra Blue the WHOLE length of the ski. This will slow the ski down a bit with a consistent glide, without the glide and grab effect that skins give you on the downhill.

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Might I suggest that the wax be chosen according to the snow conditions--the stickyest (softest) wax just short of icing will give the most drag. (I have often used one of the purples or special red for this purpose.) And as skiguy suggests, wax the entire ski.* (You can also do this on a "waxless" ski.)

* I normally wax the entire ski with the same wax in the BC. Otherwise your grip will be inconsistent as you go over bumps and dips. And kick-waxing the entire ski will maximize grip for climbing. (And yes, an appropriate kick wax will glide too.)

Doug

Bah. Glide wax the entire ski and skate!!



(see example to the left)

Tim

bikehikeskifish said:

Bah. Glide wax the entire ski and skate!!



(see example to the left)

Tim

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I'll invite you a long the next time on a 40 inch powder dump in the BackCountry. I'll only ask that I get to ski first so I don't have to negotiate your SITZMARKS Afterwards you'll be begging for some of THESE

Thanks to everyone for the advice. One more question, Yardsale mentions getting a 3 pin cable binding...Isn't that a Tele Binding?

I thought the whole point of getting Nordic BC gear was that you didn't have to wear those stiff / heavy Tele boots.

Light is relative. These bindings are slightly heavier than 3 pin without cable but they offer such an increase in downhill control. These would not be considered a "tele" binding by modern standards although I've been making turns with them since the 80s. The boot type I recommended is also heavier than a light touring boot but the same issue of control applies.

skiguy said:

I'll invite you a long the next time on a 40 inch powder dump in the BackCountry. I'll only ask that I get to ski first...

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OK, But I'll have to give you an hour head start because you'll be crawling along with your skins while I zip right up behind you on my skate skis.



Tim

Bluethroatedone said:

I thought the whole point of getting Nordic BC gear was that you didn't have to wear those stiff / heavy Tele boots.

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This is not your father's tele boot.

The 75mm 3-pin binding is often referred to as the telemark binding. The standard "duckbill" can be used for anything from a low soft leather boot to an extremely beefy high plastic racing boot. They all use the same binding template.

A leather 3-pin boot is light, comfortable, and has enough lateral strength to make turns with, if matched with the right binding, ski and snow conditions. If you are skiing more for turns then for distance you can move up to the lightest of the plastic boots which are much more touring oriented then the bigger stiffer telemark boots.

But, IMO, a 75mm binding (with or without removable cables) is much preferable to a NNN-BC binding system for a variety of reasons. I like to turn, and the 75mm boot/bindings are better for that, so that's my bias. For long distance touring, I think NNN-BC shines, but I still have issues with the bindings freezing up so I stick with 75mm.

-dave-

There is a lot of good info on boots, bindings, and skis at Dave.m's website: http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/dirtbag.html

One more vote for pins...

Doug

I use the Voile 3 pin cable binding for most touring and backcountry use. Cable off for touring, put the cable on for more control on the steeps. Great versatility with this setup.

Currently using Karhu Convert boots and pretty happy with them, but it seems they have a weak point where the toe flexes. The rubber(or whatever material it is) is wearing thin. So I'm looking for another similar pair of boots.

I think NNN-BC shines

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The NNN's big advantage are if you need to hike in them. They do freeze up occasionally, so it's a trade off.

Bob said:

The NNN's big advantage are if you need to hike in them. They do freeze up occasionally, so it's a trade off.

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My 3-pin leather boots (Asolo Snowfield II) are so comfortable that I put them on at home, drive for 3 hrs, ski all day, and drive home in them. (I don't generally wear my summer hiking boots during the drive...) I have also hiked sections of trail in them with similar comfort.

Doug