Sharing the "Wilderness Experience" an Oxymoron?

This inquiring mind would like to know:

Is sharing your advice and experience here (and on other boards) destructive to the "wilderness experience" that we all seek? Or does it do more good than harm by building political support for the preservation of "wilderness" recreational opportunities?

Personally, I give out a fair amount of advice on techniques, but I virtually never give a trail report or even directions. Call me a paradoxical selfish communitarian, and I won't argue.

Please vote in the poll, including you lurkers. If you want to give your reasons as well, please share them with us.

I guess I don’t see how sharing trail conditions (i.e. snow, ice, difficult water crossing, etc.) diminish anything. The trails and directions are well documented in many venues so posting the recent conditions I only see as beneficial. Maybe I don’t understand just what you are asking.

carole said:

Maybe I don’t understand just what you are asking.

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Many people consider solitude and quietude as essential elements of "wilderness." EDIT: E.g., quietude is explicitly recognized in the Minnesota Environmental Policy Act. But sadly, not "solitude." (Cite checking is always a good idea. )

If we make it easier for other hikers/skiers/paddlers to get "out there" by offering advice and reports, are we contributing to the diminution of wilderness? Or are we helping the cause by recruiting voters who will act on their environmental values at the polls?

(I'm hoping that this thread stays strictly nonpartisan. If the thread veers into political finger-pointing in this election year, I'm going to petition Darren to pull it ASAP.)

I like to share info about trails. Ya it is nice to have solitude but I think sharing info about other trails can take presure off the more popular trails. Everyone does the same trails, it is nice to let others know that there are more trails than just what guide books tell.

It is doubtful that any hiker would stay away from a wilderness destination if VFTT and other similar sites did not exist. The more helpful information hikers can glean from trail reports and forums - the less time they will likely spend thrashing through the woods looking for a herd path or a camp site. I believe more information = less wear and tear on the wilderness. Reports and posts for the less visited areas might also help to reduce the overuse of the popular areas.

Interesting thread.
I post a fair amount on forums and trail conditions. There are times I will utilize a trail that is partly broken out by others or mention where I left off.. especially if my tracks lead to no where.
There are many a time I seek out trails that I hope have seen no activity...sometimes more so than seeking the peaks themselves.
I try never ever to give exact trails or directions to any wildlife that I may see..particulary "game animals."

Regarding the wilderness .... I believe here in the east or most any place I will see in my life time, That it is a thing of the past." Once upon a time" but not something that exists here any more.
Hence we try for the "wilderness experience" as a placebo of what once was.
Ever stand deep in the Pemi Wilderness and listen to a plane fly over head ?? I think that would help exemplify the reality of the wilderness within our life here on this planet.

Ok ..don't want to get to deep here...I'm out the door for a weekend of hiking... I love it !!

It would be an oxymoron if we were talking about true wilderness, but there is very little of that in the northeast. In my mind, anyplace that is penetrated by trails, even herd paths, has ceased to be wilderness. If I can accurately describe a route on a trail report, that area is more backcountry than wilderness.

Just my two cents.

wilderness

I think 'wilderness' is a state of mind more than something really tangible and measurable ... what's wilderness to me might not necessarily be wilderness to someone else and so on ...
So maybe the next question to ask (or poll?) would be: what's the 'wilderness experiencel' mean to you?

"In practical terms, the USA's Wilderness Act of 1964, defined wilderness as:

an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammelled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain.

But there is much more to the concept of wilderness than this definition. This is because "wilderness" is a human construction. The wilderness concept only exists in the minds of humans.

Wilderness is a human construction? This may sound like a paradox because mostly we tend to think of wilderness as places where there is a relative absence of human influence. Whilst this may be so, ironically, in order for their to be wilderness, there needs to be some humans in non-wilderness places defining what is wilderness and what isn't!" (from the link below)

http://www.wilderdom.com/wilderness/WildernessDefinition.html

Wilderness definitions

The quote marks are in my original message at the top precisely because I share doubts about its existence anywhere in the Northeast. The first draft referred to its absence anywhere outside the West (maybe) and Alaska (more on that later.)

The suggestion has been made that a definitional poll is appropriate. I agree and will post one now. I hope that folks will continue to read and post to both threads as they are interested.

I think KWC hits the nail on the head by pointing out that what I consider to be a wilderness experience is not necessarily what you, or anybody else, would consider one.

I do maintain a web site of my own trip reports. I see no problem posting details of my hikes. I do so as a means of sharing my experiences with friends and family, some of whom are across the Atlantic.

I find the insights gained from reading other peoples trip reports, both on forums and personal web sites, to be most helpful in my own trip planning and hope my site will be of similar use. My trip times are a good benchmark of a "worst case scenario time" for most people at the very least

So what is a wilderness experience?

Is it hiking for hours over miles and not seeing another soul?

Is it standing in a forest and hearing nothing but the sound of birdsong and the wind in the leaves ?

Is it enduring conditions that puts ones life in danger without the proper knowledge and equipment?

Is it coming face to face with a wild animal somewhat larger and more dangerous than a squirrel?

It could be all or none of these things. Some people say that it is not possible to find this in the east but I disagree. It all depends on the day.

I have hiked popular trails and not seen a soul. I have stood at the side of a highway and heard nothing but the wind. I have been alone on a mountain in sub-zero temperatures and raging winds and... there are some mean squirrels around here!

Bob

I agree with those sharing trail information. Few of us would be enjoying the hikes that we have had the opportunity to have if it were not for those in our past who "shared" information. In fact most of us wouldn't be on this continent, if it wasn't for shared information

We tend to be so egocentric when we think about OUR hiking experience. How many times have we felt or written "I had to share the lean-to with some other hikers", or, "I didn't get a chance to savor the summit for myself, there was such a crowd up there". (and I am as guilty as anyone of having these sentiments)

Just remember. To someone else, YOU are the part of the crowd.

You know, if I want solitude I just go where others don't go, or at a time when others don't go. Summer weekends, I avoid my favorite places because they're other people's favorite places, too. I don't mourn the passing of the time when I could be the only one there. Instead, I rejoice in the fact that others share the sensibilities that allow them to seek out those places.

There are still places I can go where no one else goes. They may not be spectacular, but when I seek solitude I don't expect spectacular, and when I seek spectacular I don't expect that I'll be the only one there to appreciate it.

"There's a place where I can go and tell my secrets to,
In my room, in my room"

Brian Wilson

I don't have a "right" to expect more than that.

(OK, how many of you are old enough to have recognized the lines without the songwriter reference? )

Afraid I'm old enough, Mad Townie.

So who voted that he/she posts misinformation? I'll make sure not to listen to you...


I don't think it has gotten any more "crowded" due to VFTT's trail conditions or the spread of the internet or guide books. People who hang out on internet hiking sites or buy guide books are already interested in hiking or getting out there.

Trip reports in say the Wall Street Journal or more mainstream media typically has a much wider audience anyway but most people here don't report to the WSJ and even so, probably not on the same trail(s) that would be posted there anyway.

Jay

I don't think withholding information or providing misinformation is going to keep folks from heading into the wilderness.

The people that browse these forums are going to go whether you post or not. Getting some good information may make it a more pleasurable or safe experience, in my opinion.

I definitely benefit from the trail reports, and I am happy to provide good information when I have it.

Posting misinformation can have unintended consequences and get people hurt! Not cool, in my opinion...... if you want to keep a place private don't post or talk about it!

If you want to protect places then I think it's important to share the "wilderness experience" to a certain extent, otherwise new generations won't value them or vote to protect them. I also agree that for the most part the "wilderness experience" is a state of mind. In my opinion it's hard nowadays to get a "wilderness experience" along the AT in some areas, especially in the white mountains during the summer.

That being said, I'm sure someone climbing Mt. Garfield for the first time will be as awestruck as I was when I first gazed over the Pemi. I think it's important to protect what wild places/wilderness/wild places we have left and not get too hung up with semantics or definitions. As the Northeast gets more and more overpopulated outdoor lovers like us VFTT'ers will have to put aside whatever differences we have and work together to protect our natural heritage.

funkyfreddy said:

Posting misinformation can have unintended consequences and get people hurt!

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You're assuming what the misinformation is. It might be something like saying, "A horrible hike with no views on teh summit" when it was really a beautiful hike with fantastic views on a little visited summit... or telling someone to take the more popular route up a mountain, because the more obscure one just isn't worth it.

I don't think misinformation is in the order of telling people to trun left at teh top of a cliff instead of right.

I think trail and trip reports does increase the use of an area, sometimes affecting it's "feel".

A month back I was part of a rush of something like 2 dozen people climbing redfield one Saturday. Marcy Jokes were made, at lest one person was a bit put back at the amount of people. I do think that the combination of peak bagging and announcements of broken trails does lead to a rush of people trying to bag a peak while the trail is broken out. Does it affect the wilderness experience? In the case above, I don't think so. I don't consider that area to be wilderness, though when off trail I do find it "wild". The diminished areas are already.. diminished. I don't know if the board and the net in general is responsible for the increase in winter travel as much as the improvements in gear over the past two decades. Through the trail conditions and reports I have found out about places that I wouldn't otherwise that are not often visited (Jay, Chimney).

As far as posting misinformation, it is damaging: we trust the reports, if rangers check them out they are an authority of a sorts. If you can't trust them the reports aren't all that useful.