True summit of Osceola

When hiking Mount Osceola I usually go the the outlook to the north for the views. Today a fellow hiker pointed out to me that it was the true summit. I had assumed, without much thought, that the summit was at the site of the old fire tower, but that viewing ledge is obviously higher. Not a big deal for me, since, as noted, I normally visit it, and the one time I did Osceola (main peak only) from Tripoli Road in winter I also visited it. But how many winter hikers, who do both peaks from the Kanc, visit it?

Perhaps this should be clarified in the next edition of the WMG.

Interesting. I have been up there twice, both in winter (or rather once in official winter one just outside of it) and thus from the Kanc. I have only ever been to the fire tower site. I did not realize there was actually some spot higher.

Of course, it really does not bother me either way. I am not one of those hardcore peakbaggers that has to touch a spot 3 feet higher than a neighboring bump (not that I am saying there is anything wrong with that....I am just saying it is not me).

Brian

NewHampshire said:

Of course, it really does not bother me either way.

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I completely agree with Brian, but given the discussion about the true summit of Mt. Davis I felt that this was information that might be of interest to some people.

When i climbed Osceola a couple years ago, I noted that there were several boulders and bumps in the scrub that looked higher than the fire tower site. I also visited the north outlook (and the ledge just below), and wondered if that was the true high point. Now I know, so thanks.

Not to cause thread drift, but I had a similar question about Starr King. There's a benchmark on the rock by the trail - but there's a rock by the outlook a little further along, just before the path descends to the old shelter site, that my eye and my altimeter suggested might be a little higher.

Willoughby said:

When i climbed Osceola a couple years ago, I noted that there were several boulders and bumps in the scrub that looked higher than the fire tower site. I also visited the north outlook (and the ledge just below), and wondered if that was the true high point. Now I know, so thanks.

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I did not investigate the "boulders and bumps in the scrub" because, according to the WMG:

All 67 Four Thousand Footers are reached by well-defined trails, although the paths to Owl's Head and Redington, as well as some short spur trails to other summits, are not officially maintained.

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Ok

OK, so what I have gathered from different threads on this site is that I have never been to the true summit of Osceola or Mount Willey. Well, at least I've been to the true summit of Owl's Head, twice.

KDT

Edit: OMG, I just realized, I've never been to the true summit of Washington, which one of those radio towers is highest?

Mohamed Ellozy said:

Perhaps this should be clarified in the next edition of the WMG.

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As the Guide is somewhat spotty in this sort of information, I've wondered if there's a niche for a website describing the actual highpoint of the list peaks. Perhaps it would make a nice addition to the various summitpost pages.

Obsessive, yes, but I prefer to play the peakbagging game to the hilt.

jniehof said:

... I've wondered if there's a niche for a website describing the actual highpoint of the list peaks. Perhaps it would make a nice addition to the various summitpost pages.

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It might make a nice addition to my website

Mohamed Ellozy said:

When hiking Mount Osceola I usually go the the outlook to the north for the views. Today a fellow hiker pointed out to me that it was the true summit. I had assumed, without much thought, that the summit was at the site of the old fire tower, but that viewing ledge is obviously higher.

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There are actually 2 old fire tower sites on Osceola, the obvious one by the ledges but if you look at the junction with the viewpoint spur the original tower footings are there, and I think the junction is higher than the viewpoint. Note that there is a higher contour here, and that it is the elevation of this contour and not the elevation of the BM at the ledge that appears on the 4k list.

Every time I have come up from the Kanc I/we have been to this higher point, of course.
http://hikenh.netfirms.com/TDOsceol.htm

Willoughby said:

Not to cause thread drift, but I had a similar question about Starr King. There's a benchmark on the rock by the trail - but there's a rock by the outlook a little further along, just before the path descends to the old shelter site, that my eye and my altimeter suggested might be a little higher.

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I noted the BM rock, one on the opposite side of the trail a little farther along, and then the one by the clearing you stand on for a view. I don't know which is highest but of course I touched them all

Mohamed Ellozy said:

Perhaps this should be clarified in the next edition of the WMG.

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jniehof said:

As the Guide is somewhat spotty in this sort of information, I've wondered if there's a niche for a website describing the actual highpoint of the list peaks.

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As mentioned, the WMG contains Gene's descriptions of some minor bumps yet ignores other spots like this, of course the WMG is not an official publication of the 4k Club. I think there was a VFTT note on true summits that died out. If ME would like to take this on it would be great, maybe even the 4k Club someday would indicate on their site at least where the true summit is on a trail other than the main one.

RoySwkr said:

There are actually 2 old fire tower sites on Osceola, the obvious one by the ledges but if you look at the junction with the viewpoint spur the original tower footings are there, and I think the junction is higher than the viewpoint.

If ME would like to take this on it would be great, maybe even the 4k Club someday would indicate on their site at least where the true summit is on a trail other than the main one.

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I believe that the fire tower at the junction with the spur is the original one; that is what I meant by "old fire tower". Thanks for clarifying!

I would be happy to add this information to my site, with the help of the VFTT community. Will start a new thread on that topic later today.

Mohamed Ellozy said:

I would be happy to add this information to my site, with the help of the VFTT community. Will start a new thread on that topic later today.

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Couldn't find it. I think that as people get more comfortable with GPS use they will realize that a lot of maps and guidebooks are wrong. There are at least 2 4k peaks where the trail is several feet below the summit in the woods and the 4k Club will accept the trail, and 8 or more peaks with multiple summits where the one currently identified as the summit may not be although GPS may not be enough to prove which one is higher.

RoySwkr said:

Couldn't find it. I think that as people get more comfortable with GPS use they will realize that a lot of maps and guidebooks are wrong. There are at least 2 4k peaks where the trail is several feet below the summit in the woods and the 4k Club will accept the trail, and 8 or more peaks with multiple summits where the one currently identified as the summit may not be although GPS may not be enough to prove which one is higher.

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I agree that typical hand-size GPS units usually cannot differentiate a couple of feet in elevation, especially if there is some tree interference. But, a simple hand level could suffice in differentiating less than a vertical foot for short distances, and a surveying altimeter in differentiating less than 5 vertical feet for longer distances, such as the quarter mile separating the two summits on Owls Head. Differential GSP, such as the Trimble navigation system used for the latest versions of the AMC maps, could work for sub-1 ft differences if trees can be avoided, I think.

Yesterday I tried to resolve which is the highest natural ground on Osceola. This would have been better with a laser level and companion or a water tube, but lacking any of the above I used a hand level and folding rule. Survey tape was used to temporarily mark elevations on tree branches and removed afterwards. By my measurements, the rock at the N outlook is about 2 inches higher than the rock by the older fire tower footings - however on the S side of the trail down an opposite side path is an overgrown ledge which I don't recall seeing before which may be higher yet. There is also an additional rock in the woods on each side of the trail both of which are nearly as high.

I consider my work to be accurate to the foot but not to the inch, so the best I can say is that there are now 3 instead of 2 contenders for true summit. A forest fire or more careful scouting of the woods may even find a higher ledge.

RoySwkr said:

however on the S side of the trail down an opposite side path is an overgrown ledge which I don't recall seeing before which may be higher yet.

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I always go to that rock when I do Osceola just to be sure. As well as the N lookout. There is also a geological survey medallion to the far left of the ledge.

There's a 100' path on Mount Cabot leading from the summit sign to a point that's about five feet higher than where the summit sign is nailed to a tree. If you haven't hiked that path, then you should mail your patches back immediately, and hang your head in shame (slacker)

RoySwkr said:

Yesterday I tried to resolve which is the highest natural ground on Osceola. This would have been better with a laser level and companion or a water tube, but lacking any of the above I used a hand level and folding rule. Survey tape was used to temporarily mark elevations on tree branches and removed afterwards. By my measurements, the rock at the N outlook is about 2 inches higher than the rock by the older fire tower footings - however on the S side of the trail down an opposite side path is an overgrown ledge which I don't recall seeing before which may be higher yet. There is also an additional rock in the woods on each side of the trail both of which are nearly as high.

I consider my work to be accurate to the foot but not to the inch, so the best I can say is that there are now 3 instead of 2 contenders for true summit. A forest fire or more careful scouting of the woods may even find a higher ledge.

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I went to Osceola yesterday for Flags on the 48. I only had my eyes and legs, so I can't comment on your measurements - but in addition to the high points on either side of the older fire tower footings, there's an overgrown rock behind the summit ledges (where the newer fire tower footings are) that looks like a possibility. I didn't have any way, even visually, to compare this possible high point to the ones near the older footings.

The FOT48 team strapped the flags to one of the newer fire tower footings, which seemed just fine.

MadRiver said:

I always go to that rock when I do Osceola just to be sure. As well as the N lookout. There is also a geological survey medallion to the far left of the ledge.

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In addition to the benchmark itself, there are three cylindrical iron bars sunk into the rock around the benchmark (I'm sure Papa Bear has told us what these are called, but I can't remember), and further to the left on the edge of the scrub there's a "reference marker" - looks a lot like a benchmark but doesn't have the name or elevation, just an arrow pointing towards the actual benchmark.

When the summit is socked in, look for high points and survey markings!

Willoughby

I will play this game...

RoySwkr said:

There are at least 2 4k peaks where the trail is several feet below the summit in the woods

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Cabot and North Twin.

RoySwkr said:

8 or more peaks with multiple summits where the one currently identified as the summit may not be although GPS may not be enough to prove which one is higher.

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Osceola, clearly. Owl's Head. Zealand, probably. Waumbek because of the eastern bump. Wasn't there also an argument about the bumps on West Bond? Whiteface.

Now I'm just guessing, but as I recall the summit areas on Wildcat D, Middle Carter, and Passaconaway were all pretty ill-defined.

I thought I had climbed 47 of the 48 but at this point I'm not sure I've climbed any of them!

P.S. Honorable mention should go to South Kinsman, where it appears that the USGS has it wrong and the WMG has it right (I found Scudder's argument most convincing on this one).

Willoughby said:

there's an overgrown rock behind the summit ledges (where the newer fire tower footings are) that looks like a possibility. I didn't have any way, even visually, to compare this possible high point to the ones near the older footings.

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Note that the area around the new fire tower footings is outside the highest contour on the map, that rock would have to be 12' taller that the BM to make the contour elevation
and clearly it isn't

Willoughby said:

In addition to the benchmark itself, there are three cylindrical iron bars sunk into the rock around the benchmark

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They are anchors for a temporary survey tower, often set in an equilateral triangle around the survey point. I used the folding rule to verify that they were not equidistant and probably not for the existing BM. There is an older "lost" survey point on this peak which might have been here but I didn't find it either.

Willoughby said:

P.S. Honorable mention should go to South Kinsman, where it appears that the USGS has it wrong and the WMG has it right (I found Scudder's argument most convincing on this one).

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Scudder is a bit confused on this one. Looking at the map, I would say that the 4358 mark is toward the E end of the contour hence probably on the E bump that is not on the trail. However this is a spot elevation (X) not a benchmark (which would be indicated by a triangle or the letters BM) and is just a spot they give an elevation for and not a permanent survey point. You will see these all over the map and they don't necessarily indicate summits. While there are definitely errors on the USGS map (such as the trail apparently missing the W bump of S Kinsman and the junction with the Mt Kinsman Trail in the wrong place), the USGS is OK here. It is the Four Thousand Footer Club which has accepted the 4358 elevation as the summit when it probably isn't.

To add to the confusion, there is probably a survey mark (but a horizontal control point not a benchmark) on the W bump under the large cairn - as indicated by the 3 metal anchors surrounding the cairn. This does not appear in the current survey database hence may be one of the Quimby survey points. I have always been too lazy to move the cairn to see but maybe next month PB will do it.

Too bad I didn't think of this sooner, but the Flags on the 48 folk carried long poles up many summits which would be ideal for survey purposes - maybe next year

As to summits the trail misses, the woods are definitely higher behind the cairn on Willey and W of the trail on South Carter. And there is a twin summit of South Carter that is rarely climbed by anybody but me.

RoySwkr said:

Scudder is a bit confused on this one...

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Scudder is accepting the 4358 as the reputed summit measurement, so I guess he's confusing the reference mark with a summit measurement. But so are the AMC (on my 27th edition maps) and Map Adventures (3rd edition white mountains map). Where Scudder convinced me was on his measurement of the W bump as higher than the E bump. He therefore claims S Kinsman as 4388'. I see what you mean on the topo maps, though.

RoySwkr said:

As to summits the trail misses, the woods are definitely higher behind the cairn on Willey and W of the trail on South Carter. And there is a twin summit of South Carter that is rarely climbed by anybody but me.

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OK, and thanks, but I'm not giving up easy on North Twin. The side trail from the "summit cairn" to the west outlook goes up.

More places to go back to...