Sounds rather audacious, no?

Taconic said:

Deadly snow fleas, of course.

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Deadly yellow snow fleas.

(They're deadlier...)

RoySwkr said:

I agree that this is contrary to the spirit of Wilderness, but since I didn't support Wilderness designation of this area it didn't bother me I'm not sure how Bob Marshall would have felt about calling this area a Wilderness, Guy Waterman is probably on record.

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As I'm sure you're aware, there is a rather large difference between a designated Wilderness, often federally designated, and the concept of wilderness. The Watermans used the term wildness for the concept, in part, to avoid this confusion.

Just because an area is outside the bounds of a designated Wilderness, does not mean that we should strive any less to preserve whatever wildness remains. Just because we're outside a boundary does not mean that we should have larger groups, but it does mean that we have to show more self-restraint.

Please. I just finished reading Bob Marshall's account of all the machete hacking he and George and Herb had to do to get from Algonquin to Iroquois. Let's not put our current individual opinions into the dead man's mouth. And I don't know what Guy Waterman would have thought, but having done all 48 from all four directions, I doubt he "left no trace" himself. Especially in winter, this groups' size will have no lasting impact on anything. Just cause we might not be able to do the trek they're planning, let's not sit here and carp at them about it months in advance.

TEO said:

They forgot to mention that all men should be sure to wear their Thermajocks.

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I wear windstopper boxer/briefs under the kilt, I might have to look into this.

TCD said:

Please. I just finished reading Bob Marshall's account of all the machete hacking he and George and Herb had to do to get from Algonquin to Iroquois. Let's not put our current individual opinions into the dead man's mouth. And I don't know what Guy Waterman would have thought, but having done all 48 from all four directions, I doubt he "left no trace" himself. Especially in winter, this groups' size will have no lasting impact on anything. Just cause we might not be able to do the trek they're planning, let's not sit here and carp at them about it months in advance.

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And the our acceptable backcountry travel practices haven't changed considerably since then?

The concept of wildness isn't simply about leaving no trace. We all leave a trace. Our goal is to minimize the traces that we leave (and some would argue that solo bushwhacking leaves a very minimal trace). But wildness is also disturbed and diminished by the temporary. In Wilderness Ethics, the Watermans argue against brightly colored clothing and tents (pp. 73-74) and radios (Chapter 11). In Chapter 7, they discuss group size, taking to task the AMC for seemingly encouraging large groups, while praising groups like the GMC and the ADK for using self-restraint.

The same trip organizer did a Presi last Dec. Here is what he wrote about it:

“ Yeah, wow. I have a lot to say about this hike but I will keep it very short. a GREAT start to the day, great visibility and NO WIND above tree line. We hit Washington (Peak #5) about 3:30. Sudha and myself continued on and completed the Traverse around 2am. We then slept for a while at Crawford Notch and Arron picked us up around 3am. We have whiteout conditions and 60mph winds after 5pm right on through the end of the hike. My GPS has us hiking just over 30 miles in 22.5 hours (it is 30 miles because we got disoriented and summated Monroe twice). Great effort by all- Thank you for making this a very memorable hike!


Had a GPS and summited Monroe twice is pretty funny. I guess I'm wondering why you would do a 22.5 hour traverse and then advertise this year that your going to be doing it in a max of 18 and should be 12-18.

Here is there advertised plan:

The Plan:

We will spot a car the night before.

Start hiking at 3am (Earlier is better- it will be hard to summit the last 3 peaks in the dark).

Webster Cliff trail to summit of Webster Mt. then the summit of Mt. Jackson = 5.8 miles
Then we will follow the (AT) to Pierce, Eisenhower, Franklin, and Monroe = 7.5 miles
We are now past the 1/2 way point (Lakes of the Clouds Hut)

We will continue on the (AT) to Washington, Clay, Jefferson, Adams, and Madison = 9.1 miles
Time to descend on the Daniel - Webster trail to the Dolly Copp Campground = 4.1
We then have a 2.0 mile hike on a road (Closed after Oct. 10) = 2.0 Miles

Total Miles = 28.5 Total Elevation gain 10,000ft. + Total Hiking time= 12-18 hours

Total Calories burned = 18,000 (Bring a lot of food)

Total Peaks= 11

Complete the hike by 10pm
Again,


Website: http://en.wikipedia.o...



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



DAY 2

FULL PEMI LOOP-
Normally done as a 3 day backpacking trip.

After little or no sleep and a 30 mile hike the day before we will strap on our 25 - 30 lb packs and hit the tral again about 3am.

Flume, Liberty, Little Haystack, Lincoln, Lafayette, Garfield, South Twin, Guyot, Bond, Bondcliff

10,000 + Elevation gain. 30+ miles



So.. little to no sleep then setting out for a full winter pemi. When last year your hardest hike was the Presi in 22.5 hours by itself. As Sue pointed out, if this was a group familiar with each other had a bunch of experience in the area and kept it small..one thing... to basically throw it out there for who ever though? With just some verbal crap about you should be prepared? How the hell do they know what actually being ready to do it is. What happens to the ones who have to quit? Fend for yourself time exhausted on a ridge?

I think I need a time out before I post more.

TEO said:

In Wilderness Ethics, the Watermans argue against brightly colored clothing and tents (pp. 73-74) and radios (Chapter 11). In Chapter 7, they discuss group size, taking to task the AMC for seemingly encouraging large groups, while praising groups like the GMC and the ADK for using self-restraint.

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Give me a break... it's just one person's opinion. Bright colored clothing and tents diminishes wilderness? Guy Waterman was great in a lot of ways but just because he said it doesn't mean it's some physical law that we all must govern by.

-Dr. Wu

dr_wu002 said:

Give me a break... it's just one person's opinion. Bright colored clothing and tents diminishes wilderness? Guy Waterman was great in a lot of ways but just because he said it doesn't mean it's some physical law that we all must govern by.

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(Keep in mind that both Laura & Guy wrote the books). No, the Watermans aren't perfect, nor are they without contradictions, but they do prompt and encourage us to consider our actions and the consequences that those actions have.

Regarding colors, the Watermans draw on park managers at Rainier National Park, quoting them as saying, "'more can use the same general area [using drab colored tents] without knowing of others' presence. ...As more and more seek the solitude of the wilderness, visual impact will become increasingly important.'" (Wilderness Ethics, p. 74) Were they particularly sensitive to this issue as the book was written in the waning days of the day-glo explosion? Perhaps. Do brighter colored tents keep the tent-bound less depressed? So I'm told. But, has my solitary enjoyment of a remote, mountain pond been jarringly ended by brightly attired hikers coming into view, when perhaps they would have gone unnoticed in quieter garb? Most definitely.

ferrisjrf said:

1/23/10 is looking like a perfect Sunday for a Pemi Loop.

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I'm thinking that 1/23/11 could be even better.

I wonder if the FS is going to spot portable toilets along their routes.

TEO said:

...But, has my solitary enjoyment of a remote, mountain pond been jarringly ended by brightly attired hikers coming into view, when perhaps they would have gone unnoticed in quieter garb? Most definitely.

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What if they're women and they're really hot?

Personally, a group of 15-people tramping across two ridges expedition-style isn't my thing. Everyone has their own way of doing things, and frankly my opinion in the matter is just that...my opinion. To me, it's like standing next to someone smoking. Each is doing their own thing. Each is allowed (in most cases and areas) by law. At times, one can infringe on the enjoyment of the other. However, the "inconvenience" is temporary and in the big scheme of things, it shall pass.

Either way, it's certainly not in the spirit of "wilderness". No comment if that is a good or bad thing.

TEO said:

Just because an area is outside the bounds of a designated Wilderness, does not mean that we should strive any less to preserve whatever wildness remains. Just because we're outside a boundary does not mean that we should have larger groups, but it does mean that we have to show more self-restraint.

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I agree, but I don't see that having a group do this is as day hike in winter diminishes wildness as much (or creates more physical impact) as a multi-day AMC summer range walk which requires helicopter support and the building of huts.

dr_wu002 said:

Give me a break... it's just one person's opinion. Bright colored clothing and tents diminishes wilderness?

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It may have no physical impact (if animals are colorblind and aren't more disturbed) but it makes human visitors think the area is more heavily used and potentially ruins their experience. Of course I don't think anybody should expect wildness on the Presidentials or the Pemi Loop, if they want that they should go elsewhere.

Trails are always the most heavily used 0.1% of the land. (Obviously.) We built trails with the intent that most of the people would be there. To go on trails, and then not expect to see people is 1. absurd, and 2. selfish. If you want to not see people, go on the 99.9% of the land that is not heavily used. I expect to see, andenjoy seeing lots of people on the on the trailstrail with me. If you think there are too many people on the trails, do your part and stay off them.

TEO said:

. In Wilderness Ethics, the Watermans argue against brightly colored clothing and tents (pp. 73-74) and radios (Chapter 11). In Chapter 7, they discuss group size, taking to task the AMC for seemingly encouraging large groups, while praising groups like the GMC and the ADK for using self-restraint.

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haha,
thanks for the laugh!
i guess (according to the Watermans) i should stay out of wilderness areas-or maybe i could just go nude insted....

Looks like Jason the trail vulture is going to have to wait, it was posponed. Apparently the weather gets pretty rough up there in January?

Does AVSAR take reservations?