Wilderness Trail Suitable for Biking?

Mtn bike down Lincoln Slide??????

I'm in.

- darren

Tom Rankin said:

Here is one 'lister' who finds the forest beautiful and special. Not just the forest, but the VIEWS FROM THE TOP, and everything in between: rocks, streams, waterfalls, lichen, moss, flowers, animal tracks, trees, birds, people, traces of what man has left behind, etc., etc., etc.

You can do both...

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Cheers to you!!!

Perhaps my last post was tedious Hike your own hike

Not a lister, but that trail from Lincoln Woods is not one I look forward to. First off it's a road, not a trail, second off it's a straight corridor and so visually uninteresting.

Owls Head via the Lincoln slide has been something I've been wanting to do for a while though I've wanted to add a bushwack down the east side and then up Bondcliff via hellgate brook.

Warren said:

Not a lister, but that trail from Lincoln Woods is not one I look forward to. First off it's a road, not a trail, second off it's a straight corridor and so visually uninteresting.

Owls Head via the Lincoln slide has been something I've been wanting to do for a while though I've wanted to add a bushwack down the east side and then up Bondcliff via hellgate brook.

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Exactly a route I've been thinking, except an alternate route (after you've gone up Hellgate Ravine) is to go up Redrock Ravine to Guyot. There is a little pond (Redrock Pond or Bear Pond) that I've been wanting to Visit. These two hikes would be pretty cool ass kickers!

-Dr. Wu

forestnome said:

You hike 16 "tedious and boring" miles for what? To complete a list? I find it sad that anyone would be doing something they found boring while not on the clock.

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First, I was trying to be funny. Also, how are you supposed to know if its tedious and boring unless you try it? I did Owl's Head once, and I won't be rushing to re-do it via that route. And a bad day in the woods is still better than a good day in the office. Sorry you find that sad.

Warren said:

Owls Head via the Lincoln slide has been something I've been wanting to do for a while though I've wanted to add a bushwack down the east side and then up Bondcliff via hellgate brook.

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Hi Warren

Did that last year (minus the Bond Cliff climb) but be careful. As has been reported elsewhere, the Owls Head sign is not at the x4025 point shown on the topo. Thinking it was, I bushwhacked straight eastward, imagining I would be going down the east ridge line: OH east ridge

Instead, the sign appears to be on the southern bump of the ridge (unknown to me at the time), so bushwhacking east put me right in the stream gully: OH east stream gully. Not fun at all.

This year I'd like to go back and explore the OH ridge and find the x4025 spot, and maybe bushwhack down east (as I tried last year) or maybe try that nice ridge to the northwest that leads to the Lincoln Brook Trail height-of-land: OH northwest ridge

So I'm interested in a return trip if you decide to go.

Say what?

forestnome said:

You hike 16 "tedious and boring" miles for what? To complete a list?

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4-Guy,

If we've got to explain it to you, you'll never understand!!

Re OH -- Easy solution to the dilemma covered in this thread...

Do it in the winter and ski the Wilderness Trail. Faster, cleaner, easier. And one trip will count for both NH 4K lists!

Blue -- Let me know when. I'll be there to support a loyal Dean supporter!

cb

Papa Bear said:

This year I'd like to go back and explore the OH ridge and find the x4025 spot, and maybe bushwhack down east (as I tried last year) or maybe try that nice ridge to the northwest that leads to the Lincoln Brook Trail height-of-land: OH northwest ridge

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Did the northwest ridge on XC skis. Moderate slopes, mostly open woods. There were some patches of spruce that we were able to avoid on the way down (same route). This was 25yrs ago, so there might have been some growth since then...

We left the LBT just south of the height of land. (Skied in from the south.)

IIRC, someone posted a (hiking) bushwack up the NW ridge a month or two ago. You might be able to find it with a search.

Doug

David Metsky said:

The East Side Road is an interesting point, but as it's not a logging road I think it violates the spirit and letter of the rules.

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Huh? It was built for logging and at least the first part is still used for logging outside the Wilderness.

chomp said:

Since the East Branch Forest Road is, by AMC definitions, a maintained road, then mountain biking along this stretch should be perfectly ok according to their own rules.

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By what definition, where? The intent is that if you can't drive it on the day you are there, you can't mountain bike it. Of course, this opens a new kettle of worms, if you are the campsite ranger and have a key to the gate and can drive in, then you can mountain bike instead. But why bother, just burn the government's gas and drive!

Double Bow said:

Eric asked them if they were working on the list and when they said that they were, he told them that they were going to have to do it again because it wouldn't count since they rode their bikes. They tried telling him that they were pretty sure that the website said that it was OK.

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When Gene was getting burned out with 4K work, I thought it was great that he found an energetic replacement who would start an official website. Unfortunately, his selected replacement has a busy professional career and a young family and doesn't seem to have any more time than Gene did. He is obviously aware of the confusing mountain bike wording but hasn't had time to fix it, and even though he went to Owls Head he apparently didn't either record GPS readings at the sign or search for the 4025 point.

RoySwkr said:

Unfortunately, his selected replacement has a busy professional career and a young family and doesn't seem to have any more time than Gene did. He is obviously aware of the confusing mountain bike wording but hasn't had time to fix it, and even though he went to Owls Head he apparently didn't either record GPS readings at the sign or search for the 4025 point.

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While Eric is a busy individual, he does stay pretty well on top of things as is evidenced by the mounds of applications he goes through. While I can't address the issue of the website verbage, I can say that recording GPS readings is neither a priority nor a responsibility of the 4K Committee. If someone would like to supply them with that information, I'm sure they would extend their thanks but, to expect it from them is a bit much.

Also, the occasion for this visit was an offical AMC trip and it would not have been fair to the participants to have them hang around while he went rummaging around the looking for the 4025 point.

Double Bow said:

... I can say that recording GPS readings is neither a priority nor a responsibility of the 4K Committee. If someone would like to supply them with that information, I'm sure they would extend their thanks but, to expect it from them is a bit much.

Also, the occasion for this visit was an offical AMC trip and it would not have been fair to the participants to have them hang around while he went rummaging around the looking for the 4025 point.

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Are you aware of this thread http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3232 which asserts that the cairn is not on the true summit of Owls Head? If I was on a hike to Owls Head with a member of the 4K committee, I would be miffed if I later discovered there was a higher point we hadn't troubled to visit. I'm surprised that they haven't looked into this long since, is everybody on the 4K committee an armchair mountaineer?

The map in the White Mountain Guide shows the trail going to the 4025 point and a GPS reading would be useful to show if that was true. At one time the Trip Report filled out by leaders had space to report guidebook changes and this was part of their mission.

RoySwkr said:

By what definition, where? The intent is that if you can't drive it on the day you are there, you can't mountain bike it.

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The definition of the East Side Truck Road as a ROAD maintained for vehicles is in the AMC White Mountain Guide. As for the "intention" of the rule, where are you getting this from? Its not on the AMC site or the 4000 Footer site.

The rule mentions nothing about gated or ungated access. It only states that "if the road would be fairly easily passable to an average four-wheel-drive vehicle (not an ATV) without "heroic measures" such as winches" that it is OK to mountain bike.

In fact, they even include this quote: "In winter we have absolutely forbidden the use of snowmobiles, even when a road is passable to ordinary cars in summer. However, a similar policy on trail bikes seems a bit excessive."

This statement is clearly saying that while snowmobiles are not allowed over normally passable roads, mountain bikes ARE allowed over normally passable roads in winter. These roads are obviously gated in winter. I typically mountain bike all year long now with the advent of warmer clothing and studded tires. So it is completly feasible for me to ride on top of a hard packed snowmobile trail to the start of a hiking trailhead. If the 4000 Footer rules allow for this, than why not on the East Branch Truck Road or other gated roads?

Am I wrong that the roads in question are currently gated/have rocks in front of them?

to me, that constitutes not "easily passable" without heroic measures.


We are well on our way to beating the crap out of this horse.

can the two sides agree to disagree?

spencer

RoySwkr said:

Are you aware of this thread http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3232 which asserts that the cairn is not on the true summit of Owls Head? If I was on a hike to Owls Head with a member of the 4K committee, I would be miffed if I later discovered there was a higher point we hadn't troubled to visit. I'm surprised that they haven't looked into this long since, is everybody on the 4K committee an armchair mountaineer?

The map in the White Mountain Guide shows the trail going to the 4025 point and a GPS reading would be useful to show if that was true. At one time the Trip Report filled out by leaders had space to report guidebook changes and this was part of their mission.

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As it is, the 4K Commitee and most hikers accept the area around the sign to be the summit, regardless of whether or not there is another spot in the woods that may or may not be a few inches higher. Currently, trip leaders are not required to report anything in the way of guidebook changes. All that is required is to provide a fun, safe experience for the participants.

spencer said:

Am I wrong that the roads in question are currently gated/have rocks in front of them?

to me, that constitutes not "easily passable" without heroic measures.

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Well, my interpretation is that, if I had the key, I could open the gate and drive the road without heroic measures.

I am only half joking. Actually, the 4000 Footer site refers to Winter Peakbagging as a "game". I take the same position on their other rules. This whole peakbagging thing is just a game with rules invented to define the game. So what is wrong with having some fun interpreting the rules?

But seriously, if I was to mountain bike Gale River Road in the winter to the start or the Gale River Trailhead, does anyone think that this wouldn't count? Before this thread started, I just assumed that this would be OK since its a road, and the only reason I am not allowed to drive it in the winter is SNOW. Of course, I think that if you hopped a ride on a snowmobile in the winter to the start of a trailhead, that would be OK too, but that activity is clearly banned.

I promise, this will be my last entry here. I believe that this should be cleared up by the 4000'er Committee posting some revised rules on the website that would eliminate any confusion.

But as I read the rules, I think the first part is the most important:

The basic rule is very simple: You must climb (on foot!) to and from the summit of each peak on the list... For peaks with trails starting at maintained roads the rule is simple: Drive to the trailhead then walk

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Unless you consider where the East Side Road intersects with the Wilderness Area to be a trailhead, this basic rule means that you must start at Lincoln Woods (or Lafayette Place for the slide people) on foot. For some of the Maine peaks where there are no trails and the approaches are via logging roads, the bike rules would apply, but not Owls Head.

I really don't think the bike rules apply to any of the 4000'ers in the Whites, since they all have trails starting at maintained roads. I'm not sure about biking Gale River in winter, my interpretation would be no but that's based mostly on gut. My thought is that the trailhead in winter is at the gate, not the summer trailhead, but I can understand people feeling differently.

So, I'm done. Paging Eric!

-dave-

David Metsky said:

Unless you consider where the East Side Road intersects with the Wilderness Area to be a trailhead, this basic rule means that you must start at Lincoln Woods (or Lafayette Place for the slide people) on foot. For some of the Maine peaks where there are no trails and the approaches are via logging roads, the bike rules would apply, but not Owls Head.

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Ah, Dave, you have stumbled onto the weak point on my argument. Actually, I was suprised that nobody jumped on me earlier for this one. However, as I have for this entire thread, I have an answer to this as well!!

The quote that you provided was "For peaks with trails starting at maintained road..."

Well, this does not apply to Owl's Head since Owl's Head does not have a TRAIL TO THE PEAK! There is an unmaintained herd path, but there is not maintained trail to the summit. Therefore, the little bit about starting at a "trailhead" doesn't apply! Whoo-hoo!!!!

OK, that is probably a stretch, but this is just too much fun. And for the record, I have never mountain biked the Wilderness Trail or the East Side Road - it seems too much of a hastle to bring a bike, stash it, change shoes, etc... I just personally think its OK if you want to do it.

spencer said:

We are well on our way to beating the crap out of this horse.

can the two sides agree to disagree?

spencer

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There is still plenty of crap left in that horse...

Anyway, it is not up to these two sides to agree or disagree. The entire point of all of my posts is that the people that make the rules are the ones that need to make them more clear. The fact that people debate this issue over and over is proof that there is controversy.

Debates over postholes and dogs on the trail will still be going on long after all of us are dead. This is one issue that could be ended once and for all if the powers that be would just change their verbage and post it on their site.

- darren

ps: "peaks with trails..." ha ha ha ha ha

I agree to agree with Darren.... again

Arm wrote:
wondering why they call it "Owl's Head" anyways ?

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It's named after a rock formation on the south end of the ridge......and no, I don't think it looks anything like an Owl's head.

Loon Mountain...Wildcat Mountain