GPS question...Osseo Trail?

so I was messing around with my Garmin 60csx and thinking about doing Flume via the Osseo trail...and noticed that it is the old route of the trail that is in mapsource .....so I just plotted to general route of the trail using the appropriate AMC map.

I guess my question is, how common is this with other trails in the Whites?

Any other ideas for getting around this? I'm a relative novice with a GPS, and we're still getting to know each other.....

I imagine there are other threads about this, but I did look, and didn't find anything useful.

thanks!

Jason Berard said:

I guess my question is, how common is this with other trails in the Whites?

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Very common, from what I've seen. Most sources draw from the USGS maps, which haven't been updated in quite awhile. You can find user-made GPX tracks at TrailRegistry, which are going to be (obviously) variable in quality. I mean to play with custom maps at some point, in my copious free time.

The Liberty Spring Trail is different from that plotted in Magellen's MapSource 4.x. Places denoted as "shelter" on the maps get removed as well.

Both Garmin topo maps and NG topo maps are based upon USGS maps. Presumably the locations of the trails are very similar.

The USGS topos haven't been updated in a number of years and show old trail locations in a number of cases. (They also show a number of abandoned trails which can be useful to a bushwacker.) If you want the latest trail locations in the WMNF, use the latest AMC topos. (The trails on the AMC topos have been plotted using GPSes and are updated frequently.)

Strictly speaking, this is a mapping issue, not a GPS issue. The only thing the GPS does is gives one's location to much higher accuracies than without and enable one to see the inaccuracies of the map. (A consumer GPS can also be more accurate than a particular map.)

Doug

thanks all who have replied so far!

Jason,

For what it's worth I have my gps track going up the Flume slide and down via Liberty. If you would like it send me a PM.

Dave

You might quantify "inaccurate" - do you mean accurate to within 10', 100', 1000', etc? A few of the trails which have had major re-routes, like the Osseo trail and Greenleaf, might show up on commercial mapping software substantially different than their current locations, at least in part, but mostly what I've noticed with my Garmin tracks are minor differences, caused when a trail was re-routed to a different switchback, etc. Nothing that would cause major navigation errors though.

GPX sharing

DaveSunRa said:

Jason,

For what it's worth I have my gps track going up the Flume slide and down via Liberty. If you would like it send me a PM.

Dave

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Great idea Dave! Trails on the mapping software differ greatly from the actual trails more often than not. We have used a 60csx for years now and have tons of tracks. I believe I sent poison ivy a track excel sheet with all the water sources on the Davis Path last summer. I like the idea of track sharing.

North Twin Trail

North Twin trail is about 3/4 miles off on both Mapsource and NatGeo. Hiking with my wife earlier this year, after the first "high water" brook crossing, we came to where it goes back across the brook. Knowing I was already on the right side and if I crossed here I would have to cross again, I looked at the map on the GPS and said lets bushwhack the 0.1 miles to the trail. After hunting for the trail for near 30 minutes we finally pulled out the paper map and found we needed to whack another 0.6 miles. Needless to say, she wasn't real happy with me. We made it though, just another adventure.

I did same Last March, The trail gets a bit confusing at one point. I put it up on Wikiloc and you can download it to your 60CSx at http://wikiloc.com/wikiloc/spatialArtifacts.do?event=setCurrentSpatialArtifact&id=111883

Also see: http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=21359

Jason Berard said:

so I was messing around with my Garmin 60csx and thinking about doing Flume via the Osseo trail...and noticed that it is the old route of the trail that is in mapsource .....so I just plotted to general route of the trail using the appropriate AMC map.

I guess my question is, how common is this with other trails in the Whites?
thanks!

Click to expand...

From my frequent use of Mapsource I find that a few trails have been moved since my last updated copy, and the AMC maps are very good at updating the trails. The trailheads and trail juntions for two intersecting trails are reasonably accurate (Within 150'), the trails themselves can vary over 500' from the mapsource renditions. The Wikiloc site has accuracy to within 50' but doesn't seem to be as popular with the GPS using public as it is with me (maybe it's me ))

Thanks Paradox! I'm happy for the reminder about wikiloc.

Jason Berard said:

Any other ideas for getting around this? I'm a relative novice with a GPS, and we're still getting to know each other.....

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The real answer is, of course, to understand that no one method or device is completely reliable 100% of the time. You need to understand (at least from the responses so far on this forum) that trails are not always where the maps depict them. However, contours and general terrain on USGS maps are not so subject to misplacement as man-made features such as roads and trails. If you study a USGS topo map carefully using your own eyes and brain, combine that with some previously gained experience, know how to use a compass and actually read to make sense of the terrain you are in, then you can navigate anywhere... with or without the addition of the gps which is no more than just another tool to consider in the mix.

There's a new release of MapSource available for download - it's now up to version 6.15.3. Have only used it a few minutes, but seems to be MUCH faster in screen refreshes. That was a PITA with the last release.

Nessmuk said:

The real answer is, of course, to understand that no one method or device is completely reliable 100% of the time. You need to understand (at least from the responses so far on this forum) that trails are not always where the maps depict them. However, contours and general terrain on USGS maps are not so subject to misplacement as man-made features such as roads and trails. If you study a USGS topo map carefully using your own eyes and brain, combine that with some previously gained experience, know how to use a compass and actually read to make sense of the terrain you are in, then you can navigate anywhere... with or without the addition of the gps which is no more than just another tool to consider in the mix.

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too true! thanks for reminding me Nessmuk.

Kevin Rooney said:

There's a new release of MapSource available for download - it's now up to version 6.15.3. Have only used it a few minutes, but seems to be MUCH faster in screen refreshes. That was a PITA with the last release.

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In case anyone doesn't know, MapSource is the program that displays the maps and interacts with the GPS. The maps are data. (When you buy a Garmin map, you get both a copy of MapSource and an appropriate dataset.) So the complaints about accuracy are due old data or errors in the data. Upgrading MapSource will do nothing to improve the accuracy problems.

MapSource v6.15.3 has been out for about two weeks. There have been some problems with it--I've seen reports of it crashing when dealing with a circular route and when recomputing a route. Haven't tried it yet myself.
* Good: v6.13.7
* Has problems: v6.14.1
* Better, but still new: v6.15.3

Garmin posts new versions of MapSource and the GPS firmware on its website. You can use their webupdater (riskier) or download the new software file and execute it locally (safer).

You can get the upgrades from the Garmin website (http://www.garmin.com) or from http://www.gpsinformation.org/perry/.

Doug

We see what you mean . We also have the GPS60CSX. We have both the Mapsource maps and Maptech's Terrain Navigator Pro.

The Mapsource map shows the old abandoned trail that ends at the Kanc and more or less heads due south over Whaleback mountain, whiel the Maptech maps show the current trail that starts at the Wilderness trail.

ferrisjrf said:

If you really want to plot out routes via marked trails, you'll probably want to buy the National Geographic software. The trails are much more accurate with their software. You can lay out a route on the Nat Geo software, then copy it to Mapsource and load it onto the GPS.

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I'm told that before the NG "paper" maps came out they were sent to the AMC for review and they had painstakingly added a lot of old trails from the 15' quads which they then had to delete. I don't know about the online version.

Even if there hasn't been a major relo many trails have been moved slightly to avoid brook crossings, mudholes, etc. And then many maps were never accurate in the first place - look at Isolation, N Tripyramid, etc. When we bushwhacked to the true summit of Snows Mtn the summit was maybe 1/4 mile from where the GPS map showed it - the USGS map was correct. A geocache found by many people has had frequent coordinate checks, and it's not unusual for it to be on the opposite side of the trail from where the map would have it.

As you point out the Osseo trail on the Garmin software is not even close to the current trail location. In a case like that...if I really want waypoints before hiking, I will draw points on my map along the route I intend to take. I then read the points location from the map. I then manually put my readings into my GPS. It's a little labor intensive but it is easier if you have the calibrated rulers that you can buy for taking waypoits off a map. I use this method when doing bushwacks...a time when I really appreciate having a some waypoints as a back to map & compas.

Rols said:

As you point out the Osseo trail on the Garmin software is not even close to the current trail location. In a case like that...if I really want waypoints before hiking, I will draw points on my map along the route I intend to take. I then read the points location from the map. I then manually put my readings into my GPS. It's a little labor intensive but it is easier if you have the calibrated rulers that you can buy for taking waypoits off a map. I use this method when doing bushwacks...a time when I really appreciate having a some waypoints as a back to map & compas.

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You can place waypoints in MapSource by clicking on the desired locations while in waypoint mode and then transferring them (electronically) to the GPS. Much easier and faster than placing the waypoints in the GPS manually.

On a trip out west with the topo maps loaded in my GPS (no computer), I placed waypoints by moving the pointer to the desired location and clicking (or pressing enter) on it. Laborious, but still easier than entering the lat and lon manually. If the waypoints were for a driving route, I then connected them together in a route so the GPS could manage them automatically for me. (I did not have digital road maps and this GPS could not autoroute.)

Doug