experience with portable radios?

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forestgnome

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Does anyone have experience using radios (walkie talkies) in the mountains? I gave up carrying a cell phone after a few hikes because the reception is spotty at best, definately not trust-worthy.

My idea is to carry one ( I only hike solo ) and leave one in the truck at the trailhead. If ever I didn't make it home for dinner, my wife could go to the truck and contact me.

They seem to have an 8 - 10 mile range, which would be out of range for home, but never the trailhead.

Any thoughts?
 
Portable radios are usually limited to "line of sight" reception. That means that there must be a relatively unimpeded straight line between the transmitting and receiving units. Intervening ridges will block reception, as will thick forest canopies sometimes.

This is compounded by the relatively low transmitting power available in portable GMRS/FRS radios. (These are the frequencies that you'll find on radios sold in places like Wal-Mart and sporting goods stores.) The portables that we use for SAR missions are relatively more powerful transmitters, yet we also have reception problems sometimes. We will often position our base radio (which has more power than the portables) on a height of land, to maximize its ability to receive signals from the low power portables. Sometimes we have to place two base radios at different locations to maintain contact with all teams in the field.

If you go the portable route, I'd recommend leaving one with your wife, not in your truck (see the Imp break-in thread). If she cannot reach you from the trail head, she should seek higher ground. That might improve your odds of being able to communicate with each other.
 
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Search the forums for GMRS or Ham radio, there have been several threads over the past year.

Even GMRS will not get more than 1-2 miles and requires a license. In places there are repeaters for GMRS that extend the range, I know little else about repeaters.

In those past threads Ham radio has come up as an alternative. It convinced me enough that getting a Ham license on my list of hobby's to get into.
 
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I wrote this up for one of the AMC forums a while ago. It seems to hit the mark here.

Sorry this is so long winded or keyboarded. I had mentioned before why I carry my radio equipment and why I took the EMT training I took. I came across a woman with the badly shattered foot (I found out later that she had 5 broken bones) about 3 miles from the trailhead. Normally it would be an easy walk, but not with a shattered foot. We had a very difficult time getting help for her. That’s what started my search for a reasonably reliable communication method in the backcountry. I also do a lot of solo hiking and camping so for me the radio stuff is part fun, part entertainment, part challenge, and partly because of past experiences with people I have come across who have been injured. It allows me to talk to friends in NH. I can relay messages back to family in CT. I can participate in contests involving radio communications to keep my skills up to snuff. I can make sure no searches are started because I decide (or need) to spend an extra day or two out in the woods. I can also initiate a search or rescue because someone is hurt and their friend is coming down the trail to get to a phone because their cell phone doesn’t work in this area saving possibly hours of time. This has happened twice. It allows me to communicate with the search team because many of them have Amateur radio operators in their groups. It would allow me to talk to Medical Control (i.e. a doctor) if I am treating a medical patient to allow treatments that I wouldn’t be allowed to do otherwise. It allows me to monitor the National weather service to find out what the weather will be couple of days down the road, sorry, trail ;) . It can be used to beacon locations to the internet during search and rescues so command people can know the exact locations of search teams and the areas that they searched. Caveats do exist.

I have used repeaters to talk to people. I have bounced signals off satellites (AO27) to talk to people. I have talked direct and I have talked by bouncing signals off of the ionosphere. I have talked by bouncing signals down inversion layers in the troposphere. I have listened to the noise that meteors make as they cross the sky and confirmed that radio signals bounce off the ionizing trail that they leave in the atmosphere. I have listened to the music of the Aurora. I also enjoy amateur radio because of the wide variety of people involved in the hobby. I have made equipment that tracked balloons launched by school children and followed its path through the sky from hundreds of miles away or over the internet. I have seen pictures from other amateurs who have launched balloons high enough to see the curvature of the earth (100,000 feet). I personally know amateurs that were involved with the recent launch of the first privately launched rocket to reach outer space and reach a speed of Mach 5+. Zero to 4200 miles per hour in 2 seconds.

Unlike cell phones and FRS/GMRS radios that require no thought to use and they either work or don’t work. You have options with amateur radio. I can use HF and/or VHF and/or UHF. I can use FM, AM, CW, SSB, PSK31, RTTY or a variety of other modes. I can use up to 1000 watts on most bands. I have never used more than 100 and out in the backcountry I use 5 or less but, I can change my antennas which can effectively boost the strength of my signal (Effective Radiated Power). An option not available for FRS radios fixed at 1/2 watt output and non removable antennas. A lot of what amateur radio is about is knowledge. Picking and using the right tools, for the task at hand, to do the communications task and alternatives if the primary method fails.

I always carry my HT radio because I own no cell phone. I have no need for one. It is not much bigger than a pack of cigarettes and with a little skill allows me to talk just about anywhere in the Whites or Adirondacks which in turn allow me to get messages where ever I need. In CT and NH I can even make phone calls with it for free. OK, not totally free. I think it is $30 dollars a year in CT, free in NH. The technician class license is not difficult to get and there is no Morse code test. There is a large network to help you study for the license and it opens a lot of doors to knowledge about technology, communications and information and of course it allows you to communicate around the world, literally. Like most things though it depends on how much effort you want to invest. My 15 year old son recently got his license. My 13 year old is working on his. You will have to ask specific questions or look yourself to find out all the things that can be done with amateur radio. I have just touched on a few.

73, (Means best regards in radio talk)
Keith
N1XTK
By the way. Thats N one X T K, not N eye X T K. Small difference but critical.


There are two very good repeaters (increases transmit distances) in the Whites. One on top of Mt Washington and another on top of Cannon Mountain. There are others that can be used in the Whites as well. Usually, you can get into one or the other with some work.

Questions, happily answered. :)

Hope this helps,
Keith
 
From the 5th peak lean to on Tongue Mtn, a 2 watt ham radio can get u to

Mt Mansfield Repeater (you can speak to stations in Burlington, Montpelier to Canada, Plattsburg)
Mt Greylock Repeater (you can speak to stations in Albany, Western Mass, North Central Connecticut)
Lake George Repeater (stations in Albany and north country, i dont know how far west)
Mt Equinox (stations in Central Vermont/NH)
+ others

Weighs about a 0.8-1.5 pounds. You don't need to learn morse code to get a license, and you can leave it in pack until its needed, which is hopefully never.
Most now can receive weather broadcasts.

Of course, there will be cellular coverage on all those peaks and cell phones may be more economical.

And the third option is to head up into woods without any means of calling for help or requesting assistance to help another party.
 
Due in part to inspiration from Keith, I obtained my GMRS license. Other than as a novelty I've not gotten much use out of my "7 mile" walkie talkies but may find them useful in remote areas for keeping in touch with base camp or a second group.

For better or worse, cell phone coverage is increasing and I've heard and observed that signals are possible at more and more higher elevations.

In this day and age it seems almost irresponsible not to have some form of outside communication, especially if you're taking some responsibility for others or if you're alone ... and not in a state of deep depression. I almost cringe when I find myself writing this but I've come to the conclusion, despite the disruption in solitude and concession to the electronic umbilical cord, with consideration for others and good judgement you can have it both ways: safety AND back country ambiance.
 
thanks

Stan said:
despite the disruption in solitude and concession to the electronic umbilical cord, with consideration for others and good judgement you can have it both ways: safety AND back country ambiance.

For me, no solitude lost at all because I have a safety tool in my pack that I'll probably never need. It would only make me feel more comfortable.

Thanks, all, for great info. I'm going to look into it further.
 
I have used FRS radios in the woods--the range can be quite short in heavy trees and rolling terrain, perhaps 1/4 mi or so.

However, if searchers know that you have one and which channel you will be listening/transmitting on (turn off the PL tone), it can make the search _much_ easier and faster. The radio range will also be much larger if the searcher is airborne or you are at a high spot.

Doug
 
Just a side note Stan. My real point was that GMRS really doesn't get you much farther than FRS. The real license I was "pushing" was the amateur radio license because it offers the most options. :D

Anything will work from the top of the mountain. Amateur radio will allow you to get out of the valleys. :cool:

Keith
 
SAR-EMT40 said:
Anything will work from the top of the mountain. Amateur radio will allow you to get out of the valleys.

I agree--an amateur (ham) license is more useful to a hiker than a GMRS license.

Unfortunately, the frequencies that get out best from the valleys (HF) are not the same as the best from the peaks (VHF, 2M) and there is a limit on how much gear it is practical to carry.

I stopped carrying my 1lb 5oz 2M walkie-talkie a while ago and now carry a 4oz (and smaller) cell phone (UHF). (I suppose I could buy a lighter walkie-talkie...)

(BTW, FRS and GMRS are UHF.)

Doug
 
Thanks Doug. Yes, I know that FRS/GMRS are UHF. Actually half of the FRS frequecies are part of the GMRS allocation. The upper seven if I remember correctly. Something that really ticked off the GMRS people when it was proposed and then adopted after they paid licensing fees for those frequencies. Now they get to hear six year olds mindlessly chattering (can you hear me now) with each other on the frequencies they paid for. Thos seven frequencies of GMRS is now just FRS with higher output.

Once in a while I do bring a HF radio camping (Yaesu FT-817) to talk directly to friends in CT. It doesn't weigh that much and I use a wire antenna and it uses the same batteries (AA) that I use in my headlamp. I don't do this all the time when camping but it is fun once in a while.

But, whether I am just hiking or camping, solo or with freinds. I always carry my vhf/uhf HT. I get out of valleys all the time with VHF with a little planning and carrying a wire roll up J-pole antenna. I can honestly say that I have never not been able to get out of the Whites or Dacks (yet) with my HT when I tried. No matter where I was located, hills or valleys. Sometimes took a little effort, but always was able to do it. At least once that was for someone whose cell phone wasn't getting any kind of signal and their daughter needed an evacuation because of torn ligaments(?) on her knee from a fall.

Doug, you really need to get rid of that brick you have and get a newer radio. :D It sounds like the old Radio Shack HTX-202. The one I carry is (Kenwood TH-F6) wideband recieve and transmits (legally) on 2M, 440 and 220 amateur freqs. It is W: 2 5/16 x H 3 7/16 x D 1 3/16 inches in size and weighs 8.8 oz's with the lithium battery and has full 5 watts output if needed. The advantage of the wideband receive is that not only can I listen to music, news, and get weather info if I want but I can also listen to rescue personnel. That has come in handy during at least one medical event (different than the one above) that I was part of out in the woods.

I have another (Yaesu FT-50) VHF/UHF radio that is also about the same size and transmits on 2M and 440 also with wideband recieve and can transmit just about anywhere in the VHF/UHF spectrum if needed in an emergency. Yes, caveats abound.

Keith
 
Keith,

The info on radio frequencies/bands wasn't for you--it was intended to give a little background for those who do not have a radio background.

Sounds like coverage is better from the low spots than I would have guessed. Is that available using only 2M? (I suspect the Mt Washinton and Cannon Mtn repeaters are fairly key here...)

My HT is a Kenwood TH-215A. A perfectly fine HT, just a little old and heavy by modern standards. (Radio Shack! Harrumph!)

Hopefully, this discussion is of some use to others--otherwise we should take it to email.

Doug
 
Interesting...

Thanks guys, I did find it interesting.

I am an inactive ham (KA1D) and have been carrying a cell on and off for the past two years.

Last month I tried to use it on the Wildcat Ridge near the summit of A and could not. I had plenty of signal but no connection. I use Verizon and it is a dual-mode phone. A friend with a tri-mode was able to get a connection.

I have noticed this phenom before (Baldfaces). With my phone it is often easier to connect half way up a peak than at the top. (On a recent winter solo of Liberty I was able to connect from the Spings tentsite.)

Maybe it's time to look at a new HT. (What can I get for my Icom 2AT on e-bay!!)

I also get the impression that most 2M repeaters are no longer open, and require tones for access. True?

cb
 
ChrisB said:
I also get the impression that most 2M repeaters are no longer open, and require tones for access. True?

I believe "open" means open for use by all (as opposed to restricted to memebers only).

Tones are used to prevent triggering multiple repeaters, not to restrict access. Any required tones are listed in the repeater listings.

Doug
 
My little HT

After upsetting all of the folks at home by getting out a couple of hours late on a long solo winter hike, I got my ham license (last year). I carry the Yaesu VX-5R, which is just a tiny little thing, and have hit repeaters in the Whites without problem from many places. Haven't tried the 'daks yet, but there should be plenty of range throughout the high peaks, though I believe Whiteface is reserved for emegency use. As mentioned above, I just keep it with me as another emergency tool, one I hope I won't ever actually need. I carry two sets of batteries just in case.

As for the FRS/GMRS radios, I think they are best for communicating with your own group when they are surely within range but otherwise worthless. First, the range is so small, second, nobody is really listening for you. Last time I checked there was no real agreed upon protocol for the mountain areas for frequencies for FRS/GMRS radios. (Good project for somebody.) There is a protocol for ham radios for frequencies and times to call, but the best bet will usually be the closest repeater. It is likely that somebody is listening, but not guaranteed.

Repeaters and PL tones can be found at New England Repeater Director (includes NY). And once you get licensed you can participate in other community service projects like SkyWarn and emergency preparedness. When they come to get us, you'll have an alternate mode of communication. (By they I mean Dr. Wu and his friends, you've seen them.)

Well, I got spanked for starting this thread last time around, so I'd best sign off now.

73
K1DWL
 
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DougPaul said:
I agree--an amateur (ham) license is more useful to a hiker than a GMRS license.

I agree, but one step and one toy at a time! For my current anticipated use, the walkie talkies are adequate and I wanted the most powerful ones reasonably packable.
 
Stan said:
I agree, but one step and one toy at a time! For my current anticipated use, the walkie talkies are adequate and I wanted the most powerful ones reasonably packable.

IMO based upon experience using them in the woods, the FRS/GMRS radios are adequate for communications within a not-to-spread-out party, and little more. I wouldn't rely on them for external communications--cell phones and 2M walkie talkies are much more useful here.

Doug
 
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