Flowed Land rescue this past weekend

[Rick]

So... Where is the firetower cabin? I don't recall a cabin on the Allen trail....

 

[1ADAM12]

So... Where is the firetower cabin? I don't recall a cabin on the Allen trail....

The Cabin is almost at the base of the Mount Adam's Trailhead.

 

[ADKdremn]

Tim, correct, happened on Sunday.
Rick, the old cabin is somewhere around the base of Mt. Adams right along the Allen trail.

 

[Peakbagr]

I'm happy this ended well and had the courage to identify yourself. I think a lot of us learned something about preparedness from your situation.
Thanks.

PB

 

[ColdRiverRun]

Andy,

You made a lot of right decisions and one bad turn.

This thread so far has left out a lot of good decisions. You two went with a plan to go in Friday, camp then climb two peaks the next day. Conditions were tougher than thought so you guys took up a lean to a closer than the original plan and rest, good idea. The other hiker then started to break out some marked trail for the next day to help make it easier. You guys climb the first peak breaking trail and then came down and found the next peak that you were going to climb already broken out but decided your strength was lacking and decided to go back and camp and rest, great decision. The next day-the day after the "event" the other hiker who knew a mountain close by was broken out and only 1.5 miles up decided to make a climb carrying a GPS and compass with gear. You decided you were not feeling strong enough for that and told him you were taking the trail you guys had come in on back to the car, good decision. You then took a wrong turn which in that area can be confusing. I imagine when you realized you were on the wrong trail you thought of turning back but that would have been a lot more climbing and only a few miles distance as the trail you were on, that also lead to the same road your car was on. After hiking as far as you could you decided to leave your self over an hour of daylight to set up for a night and prepare yourself, great decision. The other hiker realizing once back to the car you should be out or he should have passed you notified the rangers, good call. The call to separate was made with you both having a full nights rest and food and carrying overnight gear. The only thing that I can see being questioned is deciding to separate but giving that info of rest, gear and what should have been a 4-5 mile walk on a trail without any real technical decent aspects I would imagine it happens often. You did a great job in your personal decisions for yourself.

The day or gathering was about being out enjoying the day and coming back to a group social. The climbs were all separate events in themselves, they were not like club lead hikes. Considering the conditions a lot of hikes were cut short. The Dixes were being traveled by two W46ers and a 44er and another strong climber and they decided to call it a good day when they made Dix with the one hikers winter 46 only one mountain and a mile of ridge line away, that is an outstanding call.

The thing for others that should be taken I feel is that it is not only above tree line that you can become lost or disoriented in winter and you should always be prepared physically and mental for those decisions.

Cory D

 

[John K]

Glad you are ok and I admire your willigness to come forward and admit your error of the day. I have had similar events occur in the 30 years I have hiked the high peaks and have learned valuable lessons each time. Last year I got off trail past lake arnold heading to feldspar and had to hunker down on the trail in a tent. I had carried the tent for close to 30 years without ever having to use it in winter, but being prepared came through. All I remember was being sure to awaken as early as possible so i was loaded up before someone could come by and find my miscue. I was angry at myself for not paying closer attention and spent part of the night in the tent - a pup tent- retracing my steps and where I had erred.When I woke up the sun was shining and there was a disc three trees away. I sheepishly packed and returned over the trail I had come over the night before and returned to my car and went home. Several years ago I was very late returning due to whiteout conditions and my wife, in a wise decision, called the rangers who i encountered 1/4 mile from the trailhead. To say my ego was bruised is an understatement. The ranger was gracious and commended me on being prepared but also cautioned that perhaps I should consider adding a partner in the winter and that with age comes compromise in some of the challenges I undertook. I swallowd my pride and went home. The next day it was on the front page of the papermore humility for me. The hidden gem was the story listed my wifes age, which offended her greatly and I think will cause her to leave me to freeze in the woods rather than risk that exposure again. So thats my story.

 

[RTSpoons]

Hey Buddy

I have been where you were last winter. I was also prepared to spend a night in the woods, actually on top, you what I mean.

The key thing with your experience is you were prepared. End of story...

We go out in groups and solo at times, anything can happen, you try to prepare for unseen events. You ever notice some of us have big daypacks, well we are not just carrying gorp in our packs.

The bottom line you had the equipment to make it and you did.

Happy trails...can't wait to hear the story from you on some hike....

 

[Skyclimber]

I don't care what you disagree with Marta.

You, of all people even, a 46er correspondent even, should understand that, when you enter the wilderness, you do so as an individual, and for yourself., responsible primarily for your own survival. We group together on climbs, on internet forums, or in larger organizations (like the 46ers, adk, here, ect), and we do so cuz it makes us feel better when we are with others, but not for a minute should we let ourselves forget that it is only us that we have to ultimately depend on.

Being a Correspondent, I know, been taught and have learned, that going in as a group we are responsible for each other, not just ourselves. Looking after just ourselves, is being kind of selfish, isn't it?

 

[Tom Rankin]

I swallowd my pride and went home. The next day it was on the front page of the papermore humility for me. The hidden gem was the story listed my wifes age, which offended her greatly and I think will cause her to leave me to freeze in the woods rather than risk that exposure again. So thats my story.

LOL!

We've been 'lost' out on Upper Works too. One time we were hiking Cliff in the Winter and we turned around at 3:15, just short of the summit. On the way back it got dark, and we admired the beauty of the stars as we trudged back to the car. We got in the car and started driving, but we were soon met with flashing lights. It was the DEC Ranger, sent by our hosts at a local B&B to find us. We had not told them where we were going specifically, but they knew we were peakbaggers, and were worried we were not back by nightfall. The Ranger was very friendly, and we thanked him and left. Thankfully, the incident did not make the local papers!

BTW, the first place the Ranger usually looks for lost hikers is the local bars!

 

[mavs00]

Being a Correspondent, I know, been taught and have learned, that going in as a group we are responsible for each other, not just ourselves. Looking after just ourselves, is being kind of selfish, isn't it?

Yeah, I'd agree with that. If that's all you look after. Point being was, ultimately, you have to learn to be self reliant in the woods, both preparation wise and navigation wise. That way, you will be in the best possible position to "persevere" if things go askew and you find yourself alone. Be it because of something deliberate (such as a mutual decision to split, as was the case here), or something else unforeseen (such as wandering off to go to the bathroom and getting lost). We do a disservice to people we allow them to think that, if they go as a group, they are fine and that the "group" ultimately will pick up slack for your deficient skills. They might, but you are foolish to insist they will. Outside of a paying, guided service, that could lead to trouble. That's how I teach my children, and how I would advise anyone that ever came to me in search of advice.

This situation, from the sounds of it, was a "leaderless internet hike" (a LIH ), where people (perhaps unfamiliar with each other) met up and combined forces for a mutual goal (to climb a peak). The dynamic is different and pretty new I might add, and it's UNLIKE a "group hike" situation in the traditional sense where there is a clearly defined leader/members. There are certainly basic things that I think are important in the LIH, that I think are often overlooked (I'm sure we'd agree on that) and should be discussed, but that doesn't mean that because something went wrong, it is automatically the fault of the LIH dynamic itself, as is being generally ascribed here.

My personal opinion, gained from my experience, is that if I join one, I absolutely make NO assumption that I won't be forced into/or be voluntarily placed into a situation that I must make decisions for myself in a survival situation outside the group. You'd be FOOLISH to think otherwise. Sounds like ADKdremn was in the same position, and as had been pointed by CRB, his group made many smart decisions all weekend long. I don't think it's fair of us, to judge these actions, from the comfy of our couches. I will say, that if I was at a basecamp, with a reasonably straightforward trail walk of 4 miles to my car and after I spend 2 days camping and proving my winter competency in a winter bivouac situation, I'd be annoyed if someone "insisted" to walk out with me just for the sense of group integrity. Unless I was ill or otherwise not prepared for the task of course.

Then again, just this weekend on another LIH I was on up Whiteface, I made the decision to maintain the integrity of the group and not go on to Esther, despite the relative ease I could have done it with. I did so for reasons outside safety or navigation (Heck, even the youngest in the group - aged 12 - could have followed the road we were on to the base). Each situation cannot be answered with a simple "catch phrase" or dictum to follow is the simple lesson here.

Also, the attempt to paint this incident, or any other that happened this weekend, to an event/gathering is deliberate and extremely misleading. If you knew of the details enough to recite them for all for us, than you also must have know that any hiking done, be it in memorial or otherwise, was a separate LIH, with a different dynamic, purpose and without any guidance or authority from a central entity. That part was made VERY clear right from the start.

The only formality to the occasion was the "after-party", in which was organized and planned by several members of akdhp forums.

 

[Grumpy]

Without being critical of anyone, my first, last and continuing reaction to this story is that it is a classic “split up party” incident, and a cautionary tale.

Over the years, split up parties seem to account for a very high percentage of “lost hiker” search missions that I have read about in the Adirondacks.

To me this story simply underscores the wisdom of that old rule that governs hiking with companions: Start together, stay together, finish together.

While I believe in being self-sufficient and self-reliant, I also believe that when one agrees – informally or otherwise – to “companion” or link up with another hiker in a cooperative venture, certain obligations are tacitly (or otherwise) undertaken.

Glad everything worked out.

G.

 

[Tom Rankin]

This situation, from the sounds of it, was a "leaderless internet hike" (a LIH ), where people (perhaps unfamiliar with each other) met up and combined forces for a mutual goal (to climb a peak). The dynamic is different and pretty new I might add, and it's UNLIKE a "group hike" situation in the traditional sense where there is a clearly defined leader/members. There are certainly basic things that I think are important in the LIH, that I think are often overlooked (I'm sure we'd agree on that) and should be discussed, but that doesn't mean that because something went wrong, it is automatically the fault of the LIH dynamic itself, as is being generally ascribed here.

I agree with Mavs and Skyclimber on different points. I think the LIH is where the great divide is, old school vs new school, call it what you like. FYI, the LIH was discussed quite a bit, right here on VFTT.

 

[BlackSpruce]

"To me this story simply underscores the wisdom of that old rule that governs hiking with companions: Start together, stay together, finish together. "

Thanks Grumpy, that's exactly the reasonning behind the posting of this adventure. It's certanily not about blaming or flaming anyone, only about learning that stuff happens more often that it's reported.

Andy did great and was very well prepared. I am personnally very impressed by his fortitude and think as a winter climbers correspondent that we should credit him with a "free" peak of his choice.

Congratulations Andy,

Christine

 

[mavs00]

While I believe in being self-sufficient and self-reliant, I also believe that when one agrees – informally or otherwise – to “companion” or link up with another hiker in a cooperative venture, certain obligations are tacitly (or otherwise) undertaken.

In principal, I agree. It just doesn't always work like that on LIH's (I love that term). For instance, there was a third hiker in this party that got sick about 45 minutes into the 3-day venture. He stopped the group after a mile or so and said "he was heading back". Do the other two "abort" the hike at that point for group integrity issues? Who knows? certainly not you or I, from the confines of were we are sitting right now. Did he have the sniffles and forecasting him slowing the group, so he was bowing out? Or, was he throwing up blood, and getting ready to throw a clot? Certainly changes the dynamic of the situation, don't it?

Same thing here. These two guys (the way I read it). Hiked 2 days together as a team, making fairly sound decisions as they went (as CRB points out). On the last morning, they are a well know basecamp, have a good gauge of each other "wilderness" competency, and have essentially completed the rigorous portion of the hike. All that was left to do was walk out. One decided he wanted to hike Marshall broken out, and the other said "nawwww, I'm heading out, see at the car" (or whatever). I'll tell you right now, if I was in that situation with, lets say Neil, Rik, Tom, or any of a number of others I met and know from here..... 99 times out of a hundred, I say "see ya". Go ahead and judge that if you want, but that's the reality.

Now if I was leading my Son's boy scout troop, or a busload of nun's that have limited BC experience. I'd certainly play it different. Ditto, in the above scenario if I sensed the first inkling that the hiker in question might struggle or hadn't demonstrated skills I thought capable of getting him back safely, then you remain with the hiker and keep the group together.

Point being, you or I don't know that. In principal though, I think you are right saying, at critical junctures in certain hiking situations, group integrity, particularly on LIH's is paramount to the safety of the group. I have RARELY made a conscious decision to split a group during a hike, in summer or winter. I don't foresee that changing in the future for me.

 

[mavs00]

"To me this story simply underscores the wisdom of that old rule that governs hiking with companions: Start together, stay together, finish together. "

Thanks Grumpy, that's exactly the reasonning behind the posting of this adventure. It's certanily not about blaming or flaming anyone, only about learning that stuff happens more often that it's reported.

Andy did great and was very well prepared. I am personnally very impressed by his fortitude and think as a winter climbers correspondent that we should credit him with a "free" peak of his choice.

Congratulations Andy,

Christine

Man, that's all I gotta do to get a free peak, count me in.

Totally kidding of course. It's nice to that we do agree the above.

 

[BlackSpruce]

Tom, for sure, count me as part of the "old school" team!

It has happened several times that a member of our climbing group needed to turned back, and every time no matter how badly I wanted to reach the summit I decided that I would be a stronger person for turning back as well. I just couldn't do otherwise. Still on many ways it was on each occasion a very easy decision for me, as the furthest trail head is 40 minutes from my house, plus I know that I am as lucky as can be to be physically able to climb any peak again without much hardship.

 

[1ADAM12]

In principal, I agree. It just doesn't always work like that on LIH's (I love that term). For instance, there was a third hiker in this party that got sick about 45 minutes into the 3-day venture. He stopped the group after a mile or so and said "he was heading back". Do the other two "abort" the hike at that point for group integrity issues? Who knows? certainly not you or I, from the confines of were we are sitting right now.

I was that third party and I would not have expected Andy or the other hiker to accompany me out. I was fine and so was the weather. I knew I should not have started hiking but I decided to turn around and the other two said it was probably a great idea. So I left and they continued. I must admit I was really bummed and watched the two of them hike off until they were out of site wishing I was there with them.

I have limited winter expierence. Only one peak and I tagged that summit a month ago. I Agree that if you start together you finish together to some degree. A person like me that was about a half mile in I would not expect someone to accompany me out. If I was in Andy's situation it would have been an easy call for me but like Andy I do not blame the other hiker involved. This was Andy's first time in that area and he did not know it as well as say me or someone else but Andy felt comfortable enough traveling solo and does not hold the other hiker accountable.

From talking with Andy he was definately prepared to spend the night in the woods in the conditions he expierenced. He had warm clothing, slepping pad and winter bag. I guarentee that if this happened to most day hikers that he/she would not have had enough warm clothing or a sleeping bag to spend the night and the outcome could have been tragic.

 

[mavs00]

I have limited winter expierence. Only one peak and I tagged that summit a month ago. I Agree that if you start together you finish together to some degree. A person like me that was about a half mile in I would not expect someone to accompany me out. If I was in Andy's situation it would have been an easy call for me. This was Andy's first time in that area and he did not know it as well as say me or someone else but Andy felt comfortable enough traveling solo and does not hold the other hiker accountable.

Personally, that would have made my decision right there. But that's me.

As an aside, I NEVER HIKE IN WINTER or SUMMER, not prepared to spend an unforseen in the woods. In fact, that is my wife's "call the Rangers" time. The next AM. Most seasoned winter hikers I know (or hike with) are the same.

 

[RTSpoons]

Nuns and free mountains

Spence that isn't a fair question....let's see keep the group together....as for free mountains...could you provide the 46er's position on this issue...I don't think Grace would approve...

 

[BlackSpruce]

Free Mountains:

Climbers gave themselves free mountains more often that you would think, not knowingly of course. Evidently, it happens much more frequently in the winter.

Upper Wolf Jaw: first bumped is mistaken for true summit which is a col and a .3-mile further;

Tabletop: summit ridge walk is long and flat;

Blake: true summit is a small col away and sports a sign that indicates direction to Pinnacle;

Sawteeth, Cliff, Porter, Iroquois, Emmons and Armstrong but not very often and only in winter;

...way too many bumps in the mountains is the real culprit...