Hiker parking at Cog Railway

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I am trying to stay out of this debate but do want to say that I really enjoyed Blue's information. I love a heaping cup of scientific info with my daily hiking info diet ;) Okay, I am a geek and was impressed with her knowledge and its depth and details, SO DON'T apologize, I found it VERY interesting as knowledge for the pure sake of knowledge :)

sli74
 
God bless America, the cleanest country in which anyone actually wants to live! ;)
 
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I agree with everyone that it was awesome for Blue to share her knowledge. She was right on with her science and I appreciate her sharing it all.

I still contend that we need to look at ourselves too and not just the ugly thing "over there."

Blue, I know you aren't self-righteous.

spencer
 
Blue,

While I’m sure your science is excellent, as far as it goes, I’m still having a bit of difficulty making the leap from “while the Cog is only one small contributor” to it “produce a ‘huge negative impact.’" That just seems like bad math to me, and (as I understand it) bad math makes for bad science. I'm all for heaping cups, too, but this one seemed half full at best.


pbernard,

Excused, I'm sure -- just looking at the big picture. On the long list of what’s wrong with the Mt. Washington area, the Cog is not at the top.

"What do condos and autos have to do with the Cog railway anyway?" you ask.

Well, your original post mentioned both the Cog and the Auto Road, so that would, uh, you talking about autos (remember, the first principle is to not fool yourself ;))

I took the liberty of bringing up ski areas and consequent condo development in the WMNF area. Since I was under the impression that we were having a conversation, I thought it was OK to bring in what I think are related "bigger picture" issues -- and I think Blue had already done this when she noted that coal-burning power stations are the major (i.e., "huge negative impact") producers of particulate pollution in New England.

If in the future, you just want to tell us stuff but not have any irritating response, just say so and I, for one (can't speak for the others), will listen in awed silence ("Tell us again about the unfortunate Cog Railroad, Uncle pbernard!" :rolleyes: ).
 
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The President of the Cog writing to the Hiking community, thats just classy!

Just goes to show how much of a community the Mountains really are and another prime example of the mountains bringing out the best in people.

Thank you mr. presby and thank you Darren for the post.

I do have one request... can we use the coal fire to melt some snow and GET ON WITH SPRING ALL READY?!

SJ :eek:
 
Blue said:
I'm enthralled in a class I'm taking at Harvard, Environmental Management, and tend to get very excited to get a chance to talk or write about air pollution and fine particle matter. It's great to learn about a topic you've never studied, and sometimes one tends to get a little over eager about new knowledge. :)

Thanks Blue for sharing your knowledge. I've seen the plume of smoke from the cog on many occasions and know first hand that it has an impact on the environment. One doesn't need to do math to realize this..... one need only to inhale when in its vicinity......

I also applaud the president reaching out to us hikers. Good things come from awareness and open discussions.....
 
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I don't like it, it feels smelly and dirty....

If I inhale in the vicinity of many things, I would notice an impact. Like the area behind any shelter. That would be our impact. If you get caught in traffic the tunnel in Boston on your way to the White Mountains, roll down the window and breath in -- that would be our impact. If you go skiing at Loon and stop mid afternoon to go to the lodge and use the toilet -- just before you flush, stop, breathe in -- that would be our impact. When you get home from a winter hike in the Whites, look at all the highway salt crusted on your car -- that would be our impact. In all these cases, I know there is an impact, but without doing the math, that's all I know -- I can't know that there is a "huge negative impact."

Without math, there is no science. Without some level of science, there is no factual knowledge, just feelings.

Once again, "impact" is not "huge negative impact." For that judgement to hold any water, you have to do the math.

If I had any hair left, I'd consider pulling it out in frustration. ;)

Next time you park at a trailhead, notice all the cars and all the SUVs. They're just a bunch of smaller Cogs, but much more numerous and they travel much further.

Every piece of gear we own has to be mined, refined, processed, washed, manufactured, transported, and eventually thrown away. The power to make it had to be generated. Look how much of it comes from petroleum. Plastic boots? Vibram soles on leather boots? Nylon, polyester, polypropylene, acrylic. How many sleeping bags do you have? Packs? Shells?

I've got a bunch of each of these things. I'm the problem.

It's really a good thing that the Cog is exploring cleaner fuels, but once again, we're like a bunch of fat people gorging ourselves and thinking that drinking a diet coke (or in this case, telling someone else they need to lose weight) will make it all better.
 
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I've trotted out this pic on more than one occasion, and have received an email or two about it for doing so. I make no apology for doing so again.

We have probably all seen it for ourselves but just take another look. This is one engine on one run at one instance. Multiply this out by all the engines over a full day. How many [SUVs] fossil fuel burning personal transport machines arriving in the Whites would you need to create an equivalent amount of pollution?

I am heartened by the openess of Waynes response and the news that the issue is being addressed. I agree that the smoke is a big part of the trains uniqueness and character (I grew up in an era of steam trains, and their demise, in the UK) but that doesn't make it right.

Just to be clear - I do NOT want to close down the cog.

019.jpg
 
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Why just SUVs?

Why not compare the entire Cog facility and its impacts with something like a ski area?

PS:
Great picture, HikerBob. The Cog is a lot more "honest" in the way it shows it's dirty side right out front. I would suggest that the ski industry has a much more detrimental impact on our beloved mountains but hides it much better.
 
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Do you enjoy insulting others afka? Seems like most of your replies are insulting....to imply that you can understand why someone messed with Captain Jim's scuba gear? To mock one's avatar? You missed the point uncle. Are you trying to be funny?There is another bumper sticker out there about mean people.
 
pbernard,

No, not particularly -- but I could make an exception for you if you like. ;) I must confess a certain level of contempt for folks jumping on the pile, particularly when I find the pile jumpers to be seemingly selectively blind to similar and bigger problems in the Whites, or seemingly unwilling to acknowledge their own contributions to the problems discussed. I am sorry for allowing this (probably unjustified) contempt to color my posts.

I found much of this thread a bit insulting to the folks at the Cog, who are being most civil, considering all that has been said about them here and in other threads.

Imply? I though I was rather explicit. I noted that Capt. Jim said not to take things too seriously in another thread when he decided to take something too seriously in yet another.

Avatar mocking? Yes, I do miss the point, er, nephew. Unsure what you are referring to, but probably I'm guilty.

Trying to be funny? Well, yes, but I'm told I usually fail. I do appreciate the irony of your sig line a couple of posts back, though.

After your inability to comprehend the Mt. Washington bumper stickers, I commend your efforts to read and understand other bumper stickers. Many would have just thrown up their hands and given up. Kudos! :)

I've tried to answer your comments point for point -- for which I now apologize!
 
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original parking message

Though I have lost track of the last few posts it is probaby time to draw things down.

I believe Darren was more posting a public service style message rather than looking for a disscusion on the subject.

I refined my original post to simply state that there are pros and cons to the subject as it was unnecassary for me to put a positve or negative view to his posting that parking would be available.
(and in general a little refinment on my part would seem a good thing)

There are many fine people on these forums and I would venture a guess that many of us are steadfast in our views.
(I see the subject was well thrashed about in a previous thread not to long ago)

I wouldn't want to be remembered for getting this thread 'cranked up' as there was no need for me to "let me say this about that".

So here's hoping for more deep snow and a fine winter season for all.
many thanks...spdr
 
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oh noooooo - the cog discussion again - well I am glad we can park there - classy on the cogs part - I said a few threads qgo, it was probably a simple communication thing.

People just have to realize that the majority of the folks in the US put environmental concerns way behind other concers like $$ and ease of use issues. Most people don't care about national forests, etc....

The cog isn't going anywhere nor should it, you have to deal with it. Is is contributing to pollution - yea sure it is, is your car on the way to the trailhead , yea - sure it is, is your furnace at home - yep again - Is the company you work for - my guess is yes - but thats life now. Pollution is here to stay. Personally - I don't buy the global warming thing totally. I believe hardcore enviro groups exaggerate these issues. I think it is much more of a global climate shift that had happened many times in the last 5 billion years.

I think it was George Carlin who said - "the earth isn't going anywhere - we are".
 
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The Cog, A Crude Scientific Perspective.

The following was written while off line and I'm not trying to keep the pot stirred up but just trying to add some dimension to the discussion. Take it FWIW.

teejay

I think Mr. Presby should be applauded for addressing the issue of hiker parking in the Cog lot clearly and positively. Further, I welcome the decision of the Cog to convert to cleaner fuel.

However, as it seems we have become more preoccupied here with the "hugely negative impact" of the Cog, I'd like to come to its defense with some crude numbers. I am not an environmental scientist but a chemist so you can judge this with however many grains of salt you care to use.

The Cog is what would be called a "point source" of pollution. It's a slowly moving point that doesn't move very far, but a point. At the point where it is at the time its pollution is significant, and undeniably negative. All of what is spewing out of its stack, with the exception of water vapor and carbon dioxide, is detrimental to the environment to some degree, more or less. It's easy to see the obvious particulate matter and not that difficult to quantify the levels of sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides and whatever else coming out of the stack.

According to the Cog's website, the train burns about 1 ton of coal on its trip to the summit. The schedule shows at most, 9 trips per day during the summer season, with many fewer in the off-peak times. For simplification, let's assume it averages 5 trips per day for the roughly 7 months of operation, or approximately 1000 trips per year. It may be more, or less, but if we say the Cog uses 1000 tons of coal per year, the math is simpler.

Now, in perspective, let's shift our attention to a typical coal-burning generating plant somewhere in the Midwest, or anywhere else for that matter. Using current technology it's relatively easy (and cheap) to reduce particulates from the stack's emissions. They sure look clean when all you see on a cold day are a few wisps of water vapor lazily drifting east. Another fact to consider is this. This plant's emissions are blown out into the global environment many hundreds of feet above the "point source". The effects of that particular plant at the ground level immediately adjacent to the plant are negligible. Its contribution to the total environment becomes almost insignificant when measured in total with all the other plants operating.

Here are some numbers I was able to find after a quick Google search. The figures may a bit dated, but this is crude science. http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev26-34/text/colmain.html A typical plant producing 1000 MW per year burns roughly 4 million tons of coal per year. That's about 4000 times more coal than the Cog burns per year. (Simple math). This plant burns as much coal in less than 2 1/2 hours than the Cog does in a year. There are hundreds of these plants. You can do the rest of the math.

Consider this as well. The improvement in air quality in one area of the northeast US directly after the 2003 electricity blackout has been documented. http://pubs.acs.org/subscribe/journals/esthag-w/2004/jul/science/rp_blackout.html (Editorial note: They should have done the same experiment over Kennebunkport the next day.)

What I’ve tried to do here is put into perspective the impact the Cog has on the environment. Locally, at the point, it certainly is hugely negative. You see, hear, smell, taste and touch it. Those immediate effects that are seen as an environmental affront, really pale when measured in the total. The Cog’s attempt to “clean up its act” is certainly a step in the right direction, particularly as it impacts our senses. However, the global consequence is of practically no importance. The most likely impact will be felt by the riders of the Cog when the ticket price is raised to cover the cost of the more expensive fuel.

It’s easy for me to say, as I don’t spend as much time as I would like in the White Mountains, nor have I even hiked Mt. Washington (I‘ve seen, heard, smelled, tasted and touched the Cog, though.), but if that were to change, I still think I could live harmoniously with the Cog and the Auto Road. They’ve been there a long time, they’re a part of the history of this place, and I can accept it. I do on Whiteface in New York. Do you expect to climb to Washington’s summit on a nice summer day and expect to revel in some personal “summit experience”? Not likely. Nor would I on Whiteface. But we have to look at it from the other perspective. Suppose I’m a cotton clad tourist who’s plunked down a fair amount of money on a beautiful day to drive or ride to the top of the highest mountain in the Northeast and I’m sitting out on the deck with my dog (well-behaved, of course, but a dog nonetheless), enjoying the view but not knowing what I’m seeing, eating “boughten” chili, calling home on my cell phone in (insert foreign language of choice) loudly, drinking beer out of a glass bottle and smoking a cigarette while being looked at in contempt by some sweaty fool who, I think, has more patches than good sense who’s walked all the way up and is making me feel that his/her way is more pure, profound or proper. What have you done for my “summit experience”. C'mon, we can all get along.

Now where was I? Oh, yeah, thank you Mr. Presby. For getting along.

teejay
 
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love the Cog

Im not at all surprised at Mr. Presby's response. Ive hung around the Cog and ridden the Cog over the years and have always held the Cog in very high regards. As far as the pollution issue, while I think its always smart to burn clean if possible, the Cog's smoke has never bothered me before and I sleep fine thinking of it chugging up the mountain.
While I wont argue science is important, many take it to far, the earth will survive, we sometimes as humans give ourselves to much credit for the earths condition imo.
 
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