kayak or canoe?

[coldfeet]

Mid life crisis hit again! Since I can't hike most of the Spring I thought about hitting the water for short local day trips. (Gotta be easier than snowshoeing or postholing)

So what do u suggest? Kayak or canoe?

I would like a two person boat and later on I would like to use it for short river/camping trips and use the xtra space for gear. I'm not buying today but I have been curious. Also anyone have advise about buying a used boat?

I never tried a kayak and I canoed app 3-4 times the past 2 years. Local EMS offers classes but in July, I don't want to wait that long. Thx..rain stopped in long island

 

[Artex]

You said you want it to be big enough for two people, so it sounds like a canoe might suit your needs pretty nicely. However, there are tandem kayaks to consider as well. Bottom line is there are so many different designs of each type of boat, it's hard to say which is "best". For example, I have a Perception Shadow kayak, and it's great for the ocean. It's also good for wider rivers and lakes, and all-around touring. However, it's not so good for fishing, or narrower, windier rivers. I'd recommend renting a few different canoes and kayaks and compare notes. Try before you buy, and have fun in the process.

 

[Warren]

For more than one persons I would look at canoes. A double kayak is supposed to be a bit of a dog to paddle solo.

I went through this choice last year. I felt the kayak was more sea worthy. If I wanted to use it for camping and traveling around Long Island as well as in the ADKs. For me it was the right choice, I don't think I'd want to use a canoe on LI sound for instance a decked boat offers more security. There are protected salt marshes on both shores of the island where a canoe would be appropriate but the Great South Bay. There is a LI paddlers club and paddling.net should have a bunch of old thread on kayak vs canoe.

Having brought a sea kayak to the ADKs, it's useful but it's single person boat that's more comfortable on a lake than a narrow river. I'd love to have a canoe or a river- expedition type of kayak for the ADKs.

Been looking at the maps a lot lately trying plan out fun kayak/ canoe approaches to the mountains of the lower ADKs.

 

[Jay H]

Yeah, but a dayhatch on a sea kayak makes a very nice built-in cooler.

I would go with a canoe and I would rent one before going out an buying one, especially if this is truly a mid-life crisis. It's a bit easier with two and unless you're doing whitewater, it's more practical, less of a learning curve.

Jay

 

[snowshoe]

I would go with the canoe as well. If you decide to go solo you can handle a canoe by yourself. A double kayak may be a bit harder. I have a kayak now but also looking into a two person canoe that way I can take my daughter out with me. She is still way too young to paddle. I figure a canoe would be the best bet. Until she is old enough to paddle her own kayak.

 

[Hakuna Matata]

It sounds like a canoe might fit your needs best. That way it would be best for 2. But don't give up hiking for paddling. Combine the two. There are some great places to paddle to get to the hike. Or what we have started to do is hike a mountain on Sat and then sit and paddle on Sun and rest the legs.

 

[twigeater]

kayak. More stable than a canoe by far, and easier to handle. imo.

I have a tandem and have no problem paddling it solo. I can move one of the seats to the middle and the wider cockpit doesn't bother me. It's great for me and the kidlets, but for two adults the prefererence seems to be for each to have their own single kayak. I'd have to agree. I'm getting a short kayak this year for the grandkids, I want to get the 6 year old in her own.

 

[tonycc]

This is typically a religious type discussion, canoe or kayak.

While the learning curve may be a bit quicker in a Kayak using a double blade, there was a reason the voyagers used canoes of the woodland indians rather than the kayaks of their sea going northern brethern.

In todays world, what you use does really depend on your planned uses. This implies there is most likely not any one correct answer. However, if you want one boat to meet the basic needs you outlined, then a canoe is probably the best bet for the following reasons:
- Ability to carry gear more easily
- more comfortable
- more versatility, can handle whitewater (and even rolls) by adding air bags, knee straps, etc. and still be good on flat water.
- much easier to portage
- tandem canoeing is a great way to build a relationship (or maybe destroy one )

The next question is which type of canoe. You are talking river trips, so you probably want a boat with a bit of rocker (vertical curve of the keel from bow to stern) so that it is a bit easier to maneuver. A 16' prospector is hard to beat as an all around boat. Great initial and secondary stability, some rocker but still tracks well on flat water, good gear carrying capacity, light enough to portage. If you are not planning any major whitewater, a kevlar construction is wonderfully light. If you foresee some major abuse, than go with the heavier but tougher royalex. In either case, for river use skid plates might be a good addition.

Oh, I almost forgot about used canoes. Where else but ebay? In fact, there is one going today located in CT which is a good price for a decent boat, although it doesn't have the rocker I mentioned. Beware of the bathtubs, those big heavy boats which are dogs in the water or are so unstable people are selling because they never enjoyed using them. While I own a 25 year old Coleman and love it for banging down the local river, there are much better performing boats out there. If possible, test drive a used canoe before buying.

I also second doing some renting. Decent canoes are expensive, and renting allows you to try out different designs to see what you like best.

Tony

 

[coldfeet]

Thx for suggestions, I'll check out a canoe place here in Long Island that rents them for day trips, maybe they have a month rental. Just trying to stay in touch with nature during the Spring.

Just hope i use it and not like the snowboard I rented for my son for the season. $120 and I was only able to get him out twice..ouch!

 

[Hakuna Matata]

-

tandem canoeing is a great way to build a relationship (or maybe destroy one

I have to agree with this. My husband and I joke about it being a test of how strong our marriage is to canoe together in whitewater. Someone has to be the boss and the other has to follow orders that are shouted out quickly whether they agree or not. It can get tense quickly with adrenaline flowing.
You both have to be on the same page. If tempers fly, you don't walk out on the disagreement. You are stuck there to work it out.

All joking aside, canoeing can be a great way to spend time together. We often check the 'what's happening' section of the local paper and find a chicken bar-b-que, then we canoe (or kayak) near there. That way we don't have to pack a lunch. It is total relaxation, and the ambience is superb.

 

[rongon]

Anyone tried the Hornbeck boats? Sort of combines a kayak sitting/paddling style with the canoe basic design. Seems like a natural for pond-hopping in the ADKs. I just worry that they'd be slow and/or unstable on open water... www.hornbeckboats.com

 

[Jay H]

They don't call Tandem Kayaks "divorce boats" for no reason!

As far as the Hornbeck boats go, a cursury check of their website.. As long as you are fairly gentle in the portage, you could get away with many canoe/kayaks that are generally lightweight. Wooden Kayaks, SOF types, etc can be very light but then you have a question of durability. Carbon/Kevlar is harder to repair and more expensive than fiberglass.

Jay

 

[Nessmuk]

Anyone tried the Hornbeck boats? Sort of combines a kayak sitting/paddling style with the canoe basic design. Seems like a natural for pond-hopping in the ADKs. I just worry that they'd be slow and/or unstable on open water... www.hornbeckboats.com

Yes, I have a Hornbeck. Most of my hiking invoves bushwhacking between small lakes and ponds in the backcountry, and the Hornbeck is made specifically for this type of travel. I have a rig which mounts it rigidly to my backpack (a Knupac from Eric Knudsen) so I can carry it hands free over any terrain. It is not as fast as a longer canoe of course, but it's not as slow as you might think for it's size. If you learn how to lean properly it turns like a dream, but will track very straight as well. I do paddle it long distances on big water without major problems. There's not much freeboard for rough water, but if you keep the weight centered then the bow and stern will bob with the waves instead of becoming submerged. The biggest problem I have in windy conditions is the spray cut by the bow blowing into the boat. The standard kevlar Hornbeck weighs only 17 pounds, I have a first generation carbon/kevlar Blackjack that weighs 16 pounds, and Peter H. is now making a 12 pound version.

 

[tonycc]

Yes, I have a Hornbeck.

With your name, of course you would.

As much as I would love to get a boat this light, I'm afraid it is a bit small for my taste. Not only is the freeboard a concern (especially when loaded for a wilderness trek), but the seat height also.

I don't normally kneel in a canoe, but I do enjoy the ability of higher seats to let me put one leg under me with the other stretched out. Alternating the various leg positions a higher seat affords is what keeps me comfortable over many hours worth of paddling.

However, these wee lassie type of boats would be high on my list of wants if I frequently poked around some of the smaller lakes and ponds in the daks.

Tony

 

[KayakDan]

I would say kayak,but you probably would have guessed that!
Really,it depends on how and where you want to paddle.
Canoes-
Easier to pack-more space-more comfortable for some.
Slower than a sea kayak-less distance for the effort.
Great for rivers,lakes etc on less windy days-more practical on river whitewater than a long kayak.

Kayaks-
More creativity in packing-but still holds lots of gear( I'm never without a cold beer on the end of a paddling day!)
Faster on the water,particularly in windy conditions-more distance for the days' effort.
Much more practical and stable in ocean conditions,and rougher water on windy days(lakes included)

You mentioned a two person boat-any consideration to two kayaks? More gear space and more flexibility-but that depends on what your other paddler wants.

Try them all-check with the big stores for their paddle demo days,maybe do some rentals for a day or weekend. Your answer will make itself known.
We started canoeing-river camping trips-lakes-all fresh water stuff-great fun.
Here we are seven years later,kayaking off the coast of Maine-multi day trips in expedition size single kayaks,doing 15-18 mile days.
Try everything you can,and you will find your answer.
Happy Paddling!

 

[Nessmuk]

As much as I would love to get a boat this light, I'm afraid it is a bit small for my taste. Not only is the freeboard a concern (especially when loaded for a wilderness trek), but the seat height also.

I don't normally kneel in a canoe, but I do enjoy the ability of higher seats to let me put one leg under me with the other stretched out. Alternating the various leg positions a higher seat affords is what keeps me comfortable over many hours worth of paddling.Tony

Tony, note that there is a 12 foot version of the Hornbeck (vs. the more popular 10.5 ft Lost Pond) which may be more to your liking. Freeboard has concerned me also, but in practice I'm surprised I do not take on any water in waves, other than blown-in spray. For that I'm working on a home made spray cover for this season. The little boat does a remarkable job of bobbing with the waves, rather than submerging under them, even when carrying a loaded knupac. I do have 2 main leg positions, either straight out in front of me (kayak style), or I find it very comfortable to cross my legs for a combination of position variations not possible in a kayak. The backrest helps out a lot.

If you want a more traditional canoe seat you might try the 14 pound Grasse River Boatworks Peeper. The seat is on rails which make it easy to adjust for fore/aft trim. It is also a bit longer and sleeker than the Hornbeck Lost Pond. I have seen a Peeper but not yet paddled one. I don't know about stability yet; I'm waiting for ice-out to visit grb or macscanoe to test out the differences.

A friend of mine was carrying a 15 foot canoe and I had my Hornbeck while bushwhacking through rather dense growth and blowdown. He had a MUCH more difficult time negotiating his way through than I did, simply because his longer length did not allow shorter turns and twists between the trees. As with anything else there are compromises of course. Just remember the small boat's primary design reflects what it is named for - Lost Pond. If access to those ponds is your primary goal then you will be happy with a canoe like this.

 

[spider solo]

coldfeet
As 'Mr Middle Ager' we swapped over to 2 single kayaks a couple of years ago...ok now it's 4 kayaks.
I've had a canoe for years.... wide and flat bottomed...the canoe not me (I hope).
We can cover much more area in a kayak than in a canoe. Our 1st ones were the recreational kind for poking around swamps and small lakes. The next year we got two larger ones, for larger bodies of water...lakes, estuaries and bays. We have had excellent wildlife viewing with both kinds. I think this is in part to our covering more area per paddle.
Tandems are more stable and we have rented them on occasion.
I now carry a spare canoe paddle when kayaking esp. if I want to keep the blade in the water when wildlife viewing ..much as you do with a canoe.
.............WEIGHT......it's a big factor if your loading and unloading them off the vehicle.
I kept the weight at 50 lbs or less..(35lbs) for the rec ones.
good luck..spdr

 

[mafogle]

Coldfeet,

It sounds like what you want is what's called a touring canoe - slight rocker, shallow arch, symmetric hull, tumblehome, and a small keel. Something about 16' would be good for tandem paddling on a lake or river with plenty of room for gear for overnights.

Most manufactures offer canoes in this category in multiple materials and price points - everything from Kevlar and carbon fiber to polyethylene, fiberglass, aluminum or wood. To my knowledge only aluminum and linear polyethylene are truly recyclable.

A good place to get a used canoe is an outfitter. Some replace their canoes after only one or two seasons

Used canoes from an individual should be bought in person, especially if it's an older boat. Plastics and composites are susceptible to damage by prolonged exposure to light. The effect is to make the plastic more brittle. Look for chalking of the surface, cracks, delamination, and loose hardware. Examine closely at any patches and repair work. This site describes repair methods for different materials: http://www.quintanna.com/mtnsports/cr&repair_1.html
Also check wooden seats and gunwales for cracks, or worse, rot.

If you're talk a real midlife crisis get a canoe and a kayak - in red of course

-Martin

 

[coldfeet]

thx

I checked out e bay last night, just curious, pretty interesting, i wouldn't buy there just wanted to see. I do agree about weight, last year at spence's gathering i went canoeing with my son on Lake placid and when i had to slid the canoe off my wife's van gravity took over and swoosh!..I couldn't handle the weight and off it went, very embarrasing (sp) and luckily it didn't fall on my foot or my son's.

I know that there isn't one that's perfect for everything, sounds like this will be a lot of fun, i'm going to buy myself a present hopefully next month.

I'm still paying off my winter toys from my first year of hiking/camping!

 

[Stan]

My son and I have done lot's of paddles in tandem kayaks. I've also done some island camping supplied entirely by what we haul on our boats. I do at most a half dozen trips a year and I'm still trying new boats as rentals or whatever the group outfitter furnishes.

If you go kayak your dilemma moves to single vs. tandem. I think the tandem is a safer option if you're concerned about different abilities or speed. It is also a friendlier option though I can understand the source of the nickname.

I also have more confidence in taking a kayak places I wouldn't venture with a canoe. I sense that it would take greater skills class II waters in a canoe than a kayak.