On helping unprepared hikers, group hikes, and hike leadership

[Tom Rankin]

"One of the problems though is that some in the AMC slam Meetup as being a bunch of unprepared yahoos while some in Meetup slam the AMC for being too bureaucratic and uptight. Both are right and both are wrong. Its not the organization per se but rather the people in those organizations that run the activities. Same goes for groups like VFFT and the hiking groups on Facebook. There are people that should lead trips and help teach new leaders and hikers and there are some that shouldn't. "

An excellent assessment!

As the president of the Catskill 3500 Club, I/we have to deal with meetups in this area as well. There are quite a few excellent leaders in Meetup, but there are a few that make me cringe. Similarly, the Club has been criticized for the actions of some of our leaders. But at least in our more tightly controlled environment, I/we can deal with these problems in a timely manner.

If anyone wants to read the last incarnation of this thread, (where David Metsky said "I've met great friends and lifelong hiking partners via clubs, VftT, and chance meetings on the trails. It's not the organizations, it's the people."), it's here. (And wow, 7 years ago, I wasn't even on the 3500 Club board at the time!)

 

[Kevin Rooney]

...
If anyone wants to read the last incarnation of this thread, (where David Metsky said "I've met great friends and lifelong hiking partners via clubs, VftT, and chance meetings on the trails. It's not the organizations, it's the people."), it's here. (And wow, 7 years ago, I wasn't even on the 3500 Club board at the time!)

Thanks for posting that link. I missed it the first time around. Some thoughtful responses on that thread. For a variety of reasons, most of those posters are no longer active here.

 

[billski]

I'd rather open my mouth, say what I think and have them think I'm an ass#$%^ than have someone wander off into danger. You can't force someone to be prepared but at least you can raise the thought and hopefully it sinks in for them before bad things happen.

Earlier this summer I did Owl Head and was about 45 minutes back from the unofficial trailhead to the ledges when I passed three people in golf shirts and sneakers. Only one had a small backpack. They asked how far until the summit of Owl Head. The sky was already rumbling with impending thunderstorms and it was 2PM. Thinking of what they would come upon in lightning and heavy rain, both on Owl Head's ledges and those two difficult river crossings coming back I gave my polite opinion and recommended they turn around.

Here's what I do. First of all, 98% of the time, it's guys that make these sort of decisions, so we know there is at least some sort of bravado going on there. So as not to deflate their ego, embarrass or lecture them, I just turn it around at me, rather than questioning their decisions, which is more apt to put them on the defensive. "Wow, you're a braver man than I. I'd be high-tailing it back to my car on the first rumble. I've found lightning to be quite random here in the mountains. The way I figure it, there will always be another day. Well, have a good hike. We're going to get down before the skies open up." (True or not.) Now, with that, I kind of characterized myself as a someone who is very cautious. I've done the old "peanut butter" method of giving bad news. First, say something complimentary. Second, spit out the cautions/education. Third, give them encouragement. Now, what I'm hoping happens is once they are out of sight and earshot of me, they will stop and reconsider their decision. Ego saved.

 

[erugs]

Similar to billski, on Mt. Israel last Saturday I saw a small group who had passed us earlier sitting and eating on the sub-peak. Not to sound like a know-it-all, I asked them, "How was the summit?" They looked at each other in blank surprise, then one said, "This isn't it?"

The trail does look like it ends where they were sitting, but we stepped around them and dropped down into the thick woods on a narrow trail. In less than 10 minutes we arrived at the true summit.

I had nearly made the same error my first time there, but we were looking for the Mead Trail intersection and hadn't found it. Of course we hadn't - it is nearer the true summit!

 

[TJsName]

Similar to billski, on Mt. Israel last Saturday I saw a small group who had passed us earlier sitting and eating on the sub-peak. Not to sound like a know-it-all, I asked them, "How was the summit?" They looked at each other in blank surprise, then one said, "This isn't it?"

The trail does look like it ends where they were sitting, but we stepped around them and dropped down into the thick woods on a narrow trail. In less than 10 minutes we arrived at the true summit.

I had nearly made the same error my first time there, but we were looking for the Mead Trail intersection and hadn't found it. Of course we hadn't - it is nearer the true summit!

Where were you when I was sitting on [South] Whiteface the first time all happy and content?

 

[David Metsky]

Grey, We'll have to disagree. 20 never show up. I had 16 for this hike, which is a good number. They are all well-behaved and actually not noisy at all. Must be my whip.

AMC volunteer-led trips in the WMNF are done under the auspices of a WMNF Guide Card. Trip size is limited to 10 people regardless of whether you are in Wilderness Area or not, and if you have more than 10 you need to split the group in two and have two leaders with guide cards. Enforcement is fairly sketchy, and I've seen many AMC volunteer-led trips violate this rule. But I have heard of rangers checking Guide Cards in recent years on the trail.

I have no idea if Meetup led groups or AMC paid trips fall under the same provisions as the AMC volunteer led trips with regard to guided hikes. The only Meetup trip leaders I know that have Guide Cards are also AMC leaders.

 

[sierra]

In 30+ years of hiking in the Whites, I have never been an AMC member. I have looked into their trips and programs, but my thoughts have always been this. They are overpriced and over regulated in everything they do. Quite frankly, I looked into leading trips a few years ago, man for someone who just wants to hike and share his knowledge without so much bullshit, the AMC is no the place to do it. Kind of like hiking Katahdin in the winter, not worth the effort involved, ( at least for a soloist). To people who have money and fancy jobs, the AMC fits better, you have money to blow and your used to formalities all the time, dirtbag climber/hiker no thanks.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

... for someone who just wants to hike and share his knowledge without so much bullshit...

Trips & Events is there for this purpose.

Tim

 

[peakbagger]

Many of the meetup leaders, including myself, run meetup hikes because of the restrictions imposed by AMC, they don't really have a choice, they are much more of a target for bad press and lawsuits.

When I heard the Hiker Ed was no longer qualified to lead AMC trips, its does call into question their rules and procedures.

With regards to Dave's question about outfitter guide cards, I am not aware of any meetup groups that have been asked for their permit.

VFTT trips and events used to be a good option for folks to get together for trips but it has not been very active for a few years to the detriment of VFTT as the trips and event were where many members eventually joined the group.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

In 30+ years of hiking in the Whites, I have never been an AMC member. I have looked into their trips and programs, but my thoughts have always been this. They are overpriced and over regulated in everything they do. Quite frankly, I looked into leading trips a few years ago, man for someone who just wants to hike and share his knowledge without so much bullshit, the AMC is no the place to do it. Kind of like hiking Katahdin in the winter, not worth the effort involved, ( at least for a soloist). To people who have money and fancy jobs, the AMC fits better, you have money to blow and your used to formalities all the time, dirtbag climber/hiker no thanks.

You can still maintain your dirtbag hiker status and be an AMC leader. I'd like to think I know more than a few...

I've said this many times before - there's the corporate AMC - Joy Street and their activities, including huts, etc - and there are Chapter activities. The two, while related, are quite different. The Chapter hike leaders are all volunteers, and don't get paid. If there is any change for chapter activities, it's only to cover actual out-of-pocket expenses.

One advantage that AMC hike leaders have over Meetup hike leaders is liability insurance. So long as an AMC hike leader follows "accepted peer practices", the corporate AMC's insurance policy will cover them. Not so with Meetup - you're on your own. In return for this liability insurance protection, AMC chapter hike leaders have to take their chapter's leadership courses and follow "accepted peer practices" of which they have a role in shaping and defining.

Despite disclaimers which Meetup leaders may make ("I am not a leader, I am an organizer"), that's mostly smoke. If you advertise a hike, define the objectives, set the meeting times, blah, blah, blah - you're the leader, regardless of what you might say. If you don't do the hike, the people who showed up are unlikely to do it either.

So sierra - if all of that is just too much bureaucratic b/s, then that's life. There are rules and guidelines everywhere. If you want to step up and say "OK, I've got alot of experience and something to teach you" then people have a right to say "OK, tell us your credentials". Y

.. When I heard the Hiker Ed was no longer qualified to lead AMC trips, its does call into question their rules and procedures.

I haven't seen Ed since winter hiking, so all I know is thru the grapevine. I did talk with a close hiking buddy of his recently, and he told me Ed decided not to lead hikes because with the current shape of his knees he feels he's too slow. As far as I know, it's a voluntary decision.

 

[akafuzzjones]

I have no idea if Meetup led groups or AMC paid trips fall under the same provisions as the AMC volunteer led trips with regard to guided hikes. The only Meetup trip leaders I know that have Guide Cards are also AMC leaders.

I am one of those meetup organizers with a guide card through the AMC. I did talk with officials at the WMNF a few years ago to see if the organizers in my meetup group needed to have cards, and if so, what would we have to do to get them. I was told that we didn't need them because we weren't a commercial entity, but we were still expected to follow the "rules of the woods" with respect things like wilderness regulations (group size, camping, etc.). While I can't speak for other meetup groups I know I try ensure our events are run in keeping with these expectations. Heck, I even talk a little leave no trace on every hike I lead.

 

[David Metsky]

I can't speak for other chapters, but for the AMC Boston Hiking and Backpacking committee and the Ski committee, the only requirements are that you take the Leadership course (2 nights at Joy Street and one weekend), that you have a current Wilderness First Aid certification, and that you are a current AMC member. In case it wasn't clear from other posts, all volunteer-led trips are free of charge unless there are expenses that everyone shares. Trip leaders don't get any benefits from leading trips other than personal satisfaction. Some committees charge a small fee on overnight trips where lodging is being paid for to fund other committee activities such as workshops and outreach.

No, it's not for everyone but it's also not a difficult bar to clear. The general public often confuses "corporate AMC trips" with the volunteer-led trips, much to everyone's consternation.

Having said all that, I have no problem with people not wanting anything to do with the AMC. No group can be all things to all people, and trying to do so usually ends up with no one being happy. The more the merrier.

 

[akafuzzjones]

One advantage that AMC hike leaders have over Meetup hike leaders is liability insurance. So long as an AMC hike leader follows "accepted peer practices", the corporate AMC's insurance policy will cover them. Not so with Meetup - you're on your own. In return for this liability insurance protection, AMC chapter hike leaders have to take their chapter's leadership courses and follow "accepted peer practices" of which they have a role in shaping and defining.

Despite disclaimers which Meetup leaders may make ("I am not a leader, I am an organizer"), that's mostly smoke. If you advertise a hike, define the objectives, set the meeting times, blah, blah, blah - you're the leader, regardless of what you might say. If you don't do the hike, the people who showed up are unlikely to do it either.

Two very good points that are related to each other.

Meetup has liability coverage and all sorts of disclaimers built into their member agreement but they're for the protection of meetup, not the individual organizer of an event. I don't see meetups legal team or insurance carrier helping out an organizer unless it also helps meetup. However, the AMC legal and liability protection seems pretty solid. It should be, they have a lot of resources that may need to protect if something bad happens. With that coverage comes certain requirements like leadership training, medical training, etc. As someone who has been a risk manager for one of the largest insurance companies I can tell you that those things would be required to try and mitigate the exposure.

What individual organizers in meetup (and I guess people who post and lead trips with VFTT) can take advantage of is the Volunteer Protection Act. While not exactly designed for these purposes (consult your own attorney for advice) it offers protection (reduces, or even eliminates liability is some instances) for volunteers who act within the scope of his or her responsibility and wasn't grossly negligent or intentionally trying to cause harm. The only problem is that this protection only officially extends to volunteers within government or non profit organizations.

While my meetup group doesn't have official non-profit status we don't charge for membership and don't charge for trips. In fact I don't even charge to recoup the operating expenses for the group. I would argue we don't make a profit (although unlike the AMC insurance I would have to pay for my own lawyer). Another element of the VPA deals with the individual volunteer being compensated more than $500 a year for their services - more than that and I guess you lose that "volunteer" status.

To help take advantage of any possible protection I can glean from the VPA I do use a disclaimer, but different than the type you mention. I agree, not sure the I'm not a leader one would hold up under scrutiny. You listed a trip, you told people what you were going to do, when you were going to do it, and how you were going to do it. To me that means you are an organizer or leader. The language I use simply reinforces a few key elements - that they participated up on their own and that I'm a volunteer.

Guess some of these issues may also affect those who offer trips through VFTT.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

To expand Dave's post a bit - each Chapter establishes its own requirements for becoming a hike leader (some chapters call them trip leaders). Am most familiar with NH's, and that has 4 levels leadership. Some chapters require aspiring leaders to participate in X number of hikes with an experienced leader following training. There's a variety of screening protocols depending upon the chapter - the list of differences goes on. In addition, there are other volunteer entities, called VMF's - Volunteer Managed Facilities - like Cold River and August Camp. Some of these don't require any training at all, except for Wilderness 1st Aid training at specified intervals. And not to be forgotten - there are Major Excursions, also volunteer lead, and it has its own training and requirements.

If that seems complex, it is. But considering it's been around for nearly 140 years, there are many traditions which have evolved within the organization, with each activity/region within the AMC has it's habits and ways of doing things. If you want cookie-cutter uniformity throughout, you'd be better off going to a McDonalds. Few variations there, whether you're in Lincoln, NH or Banff, BC.

 

[sierra]

You can still maintain your dirtbag hiker status and be an AMC leader. I'd like to think I know more than a few...

I've said this many times before - there's the corporate AMC - Joy Street and their activities, including huts, etc - and there are Chapter activities. The two, while related, are quite different. The Chapter hike leaders are all volunteers, and don't get paid. If there is any change for chapter activities, it's only to cover actual out-of-pocket expenses.

One advantage that AMC hike leaders have over Meetup hike leaders is liability insurance. So long as an AMC hike leader follows "accepted peer practices", the corporate AMC's insurance policy will cover them. Not so with Meetup - you're on your own. In return for this liability insurance protection, AMC chapter hike leaders have to take their chapter's leadership courses and follow "accepted peer practices" of which they have a role in shaping and defining.

Despite disclaimers which Meetup leaders may make ("I am not a leader, I am an organizer"), that's mostly smoke. If you advertise a hike, define the objectives, set the meeting times, blah, blah, blah - you're the leader, regardless of what you might say. If you don't do the hike, the people who showed up are unlikely to do it either.

So sierra - if all of that is just too much bureaucratic b/s, then that's life. There are rules and guidelines everywhere. If you want to step up and say "OK, I've got alot of experience and something to teach you" then people have a right to say "OK, tell us your credentials". Y



I haven't seen Ed since winter hiking, so all I know is thru the grapevine. I did talk with a close hiking buddy of his recently, and he told me Ed decided not to lead hikes because with the current shape of his knees he feels he's too slow. As far as I know, it's a voluntary decision.

I understand that a club like the AMC must set standards, they would be foolish not to, as their name is on the product, not to mention the liability issues. I am not certified in first aid, but I see that as a valid need for leaders. I can also see the need for leadership courses, the accepted peer practices , that I would have to see before I could say I agree with it. I guess maybe in the future, when I calm down some, I'll look into this program again. I would love to lead hikes. When I take new people, its just a joy to show and share what I know and whats out there. For now Ill pass, this spring Im back in CO for at least 4 months to finish the 14ers solo. Thanks kevin for the info.

 

[TJsName]

I would love to lead hikes. When I take new people, its just a joy to show and share what I know and whats out there.

Then all you need are a bunch of friends (with a sense of adventure - you can only lie to the overly-trusting ones so many times before they catch on).

 

[DayTrip]

As one of many longtime posters here, there are some questions which come up repeatedly. To me, it's a sign that fresh blood is invigorating the board, which is healthy signal. Sometimes the posts "use the search function" are simply rude, but to people's credit - mostly others seem to jump in, ignoring the rude comment, and answer the question anyway.

To those of us who might be tempted to invoke "use the search function" (and we know who we are) a better approach would be to provide an answer to the question and then conclude with something like "this question comes up often. If you search on xxxx you'll find other points of view/solutions/whatever"/ It would be less intimidating and encourage the new user (and others) to participate more. After all, just because some of us have been using the same gear/trails/whatever for an eternity doesn't mean a better way to skin the proverbial cat hasn't been introduced.

As a relatively new member to VFTT I've received the dreaded "this has been posted many times" reply and don't really take any offense. I didn't get the impression that VFTT was a place for "newbies" to find casual information but a more knowledgeable forum that gives real, practical info beyond the drivel you read on many other blogs and sites. I've hiked all my life but have only become a "serious" hiker in the past 2-3 years. I'm past beginner status and on to the "I'm pretty sure I know what I don't know" status and joined this forum to fill in those gaps. I have no issue reading an old thread if the topic has been covered before. I find however that the "search" doesn't often find the exact topic I'm looking for but too many posts with a lot of unrelated information, which requires a lot of time to drill through only to discover the thread is irrelevant to what I'm researching. So any time someone can post a link to a relevant topic that is a huge help even if the poster doesn't want to take the time to rehash their opinion on the topic. Those members that have seen the topic over and over can often save people like me a lot of time by referencing an exact thread.

And directly to Kevin's point the pace of change with gear, trail conditions and other topics I would think would necessitate revisiting many topics for the latest info, updated first hand experience, etc. Hurricane Irene certainly changed the landscape of trails, access roads, etc in the past few years and there are always new breakthroughs in gear nowadays. Having the latest info is just as important as having quality information. A lot of us don't live in NH and have the opportunity to be in the woods multiple times a week. What's "old news" for many of you is fresh info for people like me. And those nuggets are greatly appreciated. If I have to endure a little sarcasm and derision from wise old veterans I'll take it for the knowledge.

I'd like to think VFTT is more than just a "been there, done that, used that" blog and more of a tool for enthusiasts of all levels to maximize their enjoyment in the outdoors we all enjoy so much.

 

[sierra]

Then all you need are a bunch of friends (with a sense of adventure - you can only lie to the overly-trusting ones so many times before they catch on).

Like I tell people at the poker table, I never bluff. But I lie like hell.

 

[hikerbrian]

Just to follow up on one of my earlier posts suggesting that AMC trips are "ridiculously cheap" and sometimes even useful: the Boston chapter offers the Winter Hiking Program consisting of 1) a series of 5 2-hour classroom sessions, which include some lecture, some gear demo, some situation analysis/case study, and open time for discussion with the dozen or so winter leaders that show up each night; and 2) access to the 20 or so trips that are offered through this program, which range in difficulty from easy day trips to moderately challenging overnight backpacks. The cost to participate in the program is $55 ($60 for non-AMC members) and includes a comprehensive manual, written by the chapter leaders. Most of the trips, except the ones to huts, are free. I consider this to be a very, very good deal.

Other programs of similar utility and cost include a map and compass weekend and the Spring Hiking Program. I'm sure other chapters have similar programs.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

... I'm sure other chapters have similar programs.

Here's the one offered by the NH Chapter for $75. (In the interests of full disclosure - I'm a co-founder/leader of this series.)