Petition to change the name of Mt Washington

[rocket21]

I think folks should be very careful about labeling people as murderers, especially if they were never accused of it and are unable to confront their accusers.

Regardless, Mt. Washington should remain Mt. Washington. The US government should being honoring its founding fathers, not desecrating their history.

 

[TCD]

I agree with rocket21. Most countries around the world understand this, as well.

It helps understanding to look at the larger picture, taking off the tunnel vision blinders. Wars of conquest, where one group conquered another group and took their resources (land, water, crops, livestock, women, children, etc.) have been going on throughout recorded history, all over the world. Obviously, this was always wrong, and bad behavior. Absolutely every "identity group" one wants to "tunnel" into has some of this in their history, at some point. Denial of this is simply a propagation of the old "noble savage" myth.

Thankfully, today, wars of conquest continue in only part of the world, not the whole world. Yes: the Russians are conducting a war of conquest in Ukraine; the Chinese are conducting a war of conquest in Tibet; wars of conquest are going on in several places in Africa (Sudan, for instance). But on the whole, the world is a much better place in this regard than it was say 500 or 250 years ago. Our focus today should be on getting nations and groups to stop doing this now, in the present, where it can make a difference.

So to rocket21's point, leaders should be remembered for the good, and the bad that they did. Memorializing leaders should rightly include context. But labeling past people as "murderers" based on the world's culture they lived in 500 or 250 years ago is inappropriate. By that logic, all mankind should be so labeled, and we should hope for the great asteroid strike to exterminate the species.

 

[Grey J]

I'm not really trying to revive this thread, but I noticed that I never actually weighed in on the original question of the renaming of the mountain. I have supported the renaming of sports teams with offensive racist names like the Washington football team, the Cleveland baseball team and the St John's university basketball team. I also heartily endorse the renaming of anything and everything named after Confederate leaders, especially US military bases. To me, those are easy calls. I happen to like Denali better than McKinley and I'm good with that one too, but I don't feel the need to carry this process forward by looking for things to rename.

Yes, the Native Americans had a different name for Mt Washington, but I feel no urgency to change a name that practically defines NH. And whether or not you pronounce it with 4 or 5 syllables, Agiocochuk is awkward to say. I have come to terms with 18th Century American icons like Washington and Jefferson, who were certainly flawed individuals. It's always good to tell the complete story about history and historical figures. Viewing them in their entirety, however, does not mean that we have to completely reject them or expunge them. I hope Washington stays as Washington.

Now, I will ask again, why does Franklin Pierce merit having a mountain or even a bus stop named after him??? Ah, born and died in NH.

 

[zea]

I started calling it Agiocochuk when I first saw this thread and will continue to do so

I like it better

 

[CaptCaper]

I think folks should be very careful about labeling people as murderers, especially if they were never accused of it and are unable to confront their accusers.

Regardless, Mt. Washington should remain Mt. Washington. The US government should being honoring its founding fathers, not desecrating their history.

Amen.. I'm in the Black Hills for the summer working 5 min from Mt. Rushmore and busy as heck every single day and while here learned the native tribes had slaves from other tribes not to mention captured whites. All races seemed to have slaves back then and even further back in time. Africa had them etc. Washington was a great man period as was Jefferson. And I can bet they treated them with compassion. Why would they not do so.

 

[Rhody Seth]

I see we have reached the "they were the good kind of slaveowners" portion of the discussion.

 

[JoshandBaron]

Amen.. I'm in the Black Hills for the summer working 5 min from Mt. Rushmore and busy as heck every single day and while here learned the native tribes had slaves from other tribes not to mention captured whites. All races seemed to have slaves back then and even further back in time. Africa had them etc. Washington was a great man period as was Jefferson. And I can bet they treated them with compassion. Why would they not do so.

Nothing like good ole compassionate rape.

 

[Upnorth Here]

Amen.. I'm in the Black Hills for the summer working 5 min from Mt. Rushmore and busy as heck every single day and while here learned the native tribes had slaves from other tribes not to mention captured whites. All races seemed to have slaves back then and even further back in time. Africa had them etc. Washington was a great man period as was Jefferson. And I can bet they treated them with compassion. Why would they not do so.

If you're in the Black Hills then you're near the point that is the highest peak east of the Rockies (7,242 t): Black Elk Peak, formerly known as Harney Peak. It was recently (2016) renamed (amid controversy) to mimic the earlier Native American name (transliterated from Heȟáka Sápa -- a Lakota elder). According to the discussion at the time, General William S. Harney led a massacre at a Lakota encampment in 1855 and did not deserve such distinction in this context. We visited a few years ago while encamped in Custer State Park.

 

[B the Hiker]

I started calling it Agiocochuk when I first saw this thread and will continue to do so

I like it better

Thank you!

On p.2 of Not Without Peril, the author writes, "If he'd persevered, he would have learned that the Crystal Hill was Agiocochook, the highest point in the northeastern quarter of the North American continent. This distinction loomed large over the Indian culture of the region, and those natives dared not tread the heights that were reserved for the gods."

The author the goes on to say that Field went to the summit as a colonizer, to show Western superiority over the natives.

Colonialism from the start.

 

[B the Hiker]

Jackson was named after a geologist, not a president

Why let facts get in the way of this argument?

 

[Grey J]

While a good argument can be invigorating, these discussions often degenerate into pre-disposed positions and previously established personal animosities. I liked it better when VFTT was dominated by discussions like the thread on the best route for the Baldfaces, but those are definitely in the minority these days. Probably because most people here have done most of the hikes in the Whites many times.

 

[Rhody Seth]

While a good argument can be invigorating, these discussions often degenerate into pre-disposed positions and previously established personal animosities. I liked it better when VFTT was dominated by discussions like the thread on the best route for the Baldfaces, but those are definitely in the minority these days. Probably because most people here have done most of the hikes in the Whites many times.

You don't have to post in this thread. Or even read it for that matter. Name calling and personal attacks are out of line but frankly I prefer a forum that isn't moderated down to a sanitized niche.

 

[skiguy]

While a good argument can be invigorating, these discussions often degenerate into pre-disposed positions and previously established personal animosities. I liked it better when VFTT was dominated by discussions like the thread on the best route for the Baldfaces, but those are definitely in the minority these days. Probably because most people here have done most of the hikes in the Whites many times.

The Ship left the dock when the latest hosting change was made. Moderation is all but not existent. Therefore the quality of the board has landed up in the bilge. Bon Voyage!

 

[sierra]

Some of these comments are really odd. People who benefit from the country's success, don't mind turning around and slamming it for being successful in the first place. I'm not sure if it's irony or hypocrisy.

 

[maineguy]

Some of these comments are really odd. People who benefit from the country's success, don't mind turning around and slamming it for being successful in the first place. I'm not sure if it's irony or hypocrisy.

Irony and hypocrisy as well as arrogance. I think some people think it makes them appear morally superior to other people (they actually believe they are). You know, the ultimate purveyors of the truth. I saw this as early as my high school days. As for irony and hypocrisy, just look at Ben and Jerry's. Talking about the US being built on stolen land (more like conquered, although some was stolen) and should be given back the the natives, starting with Mt Rushmore. LOL. OK, fine, they should start with their own land which was once inhabited by the Abenaki...

 

[debbifuller]

If you want to change the name of every place where the person was a slave owner, you'd have to change the names of almost everywhere in the world. Slavery has been a fact since the beginnings of civilization and it continues today. George Washington wasn't perfect, but he was a product of the times he lived in. He was also our first President and a brilliant military leader who lead our country to freedom over the British. To hold him to today's standards is insane. Even if you DO change the name to the native American name, most people will still call it Mt. Washington because it's been that for all of our lives. We can all agree that slavery wasn't good but we are viewing it through the lens of 21st century and that isn't very realistic. I vote NO.

 

[debbifuller]

So boring to have one of 15 peaks in North America named Mount Washington, including five in Washington state alone. We even have a tourist boat on Lake Winnepesaukee named the Mount Washington, which is particularly lame.

Seriously?

 

[zea]

If you want to change the name of every place where the person was a slave owner, you'd have to change the names of almost everywhere in the world. Slavery has been a fact since the beginnings of civilization and it continues today. George Washington wasn't perfect, but he was a product of the times he lived in. He was also our first President and a brilliant military leader who lead our country to freedom over the British. To hold him to today's standards is insane. Even if you DO change the name to the native American name, most people will still call it Mt. Washington because it's been that for all of our lives. We can all agree that slavery wasn't good but we are viewing it through the lens of 21st century and that isn't very realistic. I vote NO.

If people still own slaves today as you mention, then why would we not judge him by today's standards? Somehow throughout history people have managed to comment on and write about how wrong and immoral slavery was, those well-off enough to own slaves were just often (but not always) conveniently quiet about it because they didn't care enough to give up the benefits they got from it. They were also often the ones educated enough to be writing the history.

Some people would prefer not to honor despicable human beings who thought it was perfectly fine to own and control other human beings, is that weird or surprising? These people can take things too far and be overbearing, sure, but IMO they're usually far less insufferable than those who are constantly complaining about any change/progress in the world.

Name it Mt Backstreet Boys or Mt Stalin for all I care though, doesn't change my experience of it in any way.

 

[JoshandBaron]

The abolisionist movement was active in the US for 100 years before the founding of the country. Slavery was outlawed for the first time in the US in 1780. The idea of owning slaves being immoral wasn't novel during the time of Washington. He owned hundreds of slaves for his entire life. They weren't granted freedom until 2 years after his death when Martha freed the ones she inherited from him against his wishes (he stipulated their freedom upon Martha's death, how convenient.)

 

[Shoe]

Leave it as it is and let individuals call it what they want. I've been calling it Agiocochook to myself for years since I learned her native name. I also call it Wash, Washington, the Rockpile and maybe the occasional well placed curse word to boot...

And isn't it just a wee bit hypocritical to condemn historical slavery while presently purchasing goods made in China with slave labor? Unless everyone is willing to give up their modern day slave labor built devices, we should all just keep it zipped on the whole slavery issue. Just my 2¢