Where do Wind Farms belong?

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Nitpick: Windmills use wind to mill grain, Wind Turbines use wind to produce electricity. I don't think anyone here is trying to find better ways to mill grain.
 
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I agree with your assessment that improperly made access roads can create siltation problems. I also believe that networks of site access roads tend to open up access to what otherwise might be relatively remote and wild country. That, to me, is a major impact (and source of legitimate objection) to this kind of development in otherwise wildly natural areas -- whether it is oil and gas wells or windmills.
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G.
Just for a reality check, here's an Aerial view centered on Kibby.

Worried "that networks of site access roads tend to open up access to what otherwise might be relatively remote and wild country" ?

Kibby Aerial.jpg
 
Yes,
Kibby is far from "wilderness"--it has been extensively logged over the last century. Much of what the satellite photo captures are overgrown skid trails etc. that do not allow permanent vehicular access. When you are fishing/hunting/hiking/exploring in the area it feels remote.

Here's how the AMC Maine Mountain Guide describes the trail to the summit of Kibby: “This remote mountain is in the heart of the wilderness area north of Flagstaff Lake, east of the Chain of Ponds, and south of the Canadian Atlantic RR...there is an old MFS fire tower stand with outstanding and extensive views of the surrounding wilderness.”

Suffice to say, when the 44 towers are in and 17 new miles of permanent road & 20+ new miles of transmission line constructed, the place will feel a lot less wild.
 
Here's how the AMC Maine Mountain Guide describes the trail to the summit of Kibby: “This remote mountain is in the heart of the wilderness area north of Flagstaff Lake, east of the Chain of Ponds, and south of the Canadian Atlantic RR...there is an old MFS fire tower stand with outstanding and extensive views of the surrounding wilderness.”
Well, the AMC can say what they like, but I've climbed Kibby 3 times and half a dozen of the 3Ks in the area and it has never felt remotely remote to me. The views from the summit is of patches and patches of clear cuts. The logging roads (Gold Brook/Baudrey Rd is the "main drag" ) is like a logging truck superhighway. In fact the Kibby trailhead (as described in the MMG) was wiped out about 5 years ago by a new side road.

"there is an old MFS fire tower stand with outstanding and extensive views of the surrounding wilderness.” should read "there is an old MFS fire tower stand with outstanding and extensive views of the surrounding clear cuts

Here's a view of Kibby fron Baudrey Road:

Kibby_clearcut_1.sized.jpg


Have you been there Vermonster? Am I making this up?
 
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I observe four things:

1) Windmills towering more than 300 ft above the ground, with a three-blade rotor diameter of 270 feet almost certainly will have a different impact on the viewscape than will a network of log landings, skid roads and clearcuts.

2) Windmills in an industrial development don’t just dominate the landscape; they become the landscape.

3) Log landings, skid roads and clearcuts will grow back in over time. Windmills and their service roads and sites will remain indefinitely pretty much like they were the day they were new.

4) Windmills are in motion. Idle log landings, skid roads and clearcuts generally “just sit there.”

Some interesting pictures of the Tug Hill (NY) wind farm under construction can be found here:

http://www.tughill.org/MapleRidgeWindProject.htm

The Tug Hill development is primarily in farm country, as the photos illustrate. But there is little reason to believe the type of development documented in those photos would be much different in a more remote and less civilized area.

G.
 
I observe four things:

1) Windmills towering more than 300 ft above the ground, with a three-blade rotor diameter of 270 feet almost certainly will have a different impact on the viewscape than will a network of log landings, skid roads and clearcuts.

2) Windmills in an industrial development don’t just dominate the landscape; they become the landscape.

3) Log landings, skid roads and clearcuts will grow back in over time. Windmills and their service roads and sites will remain indefinitely pretty much like they were the day they were new.

4) Windmills are in motion. Idle log landings, skid roads and clearcuts generally “just sit there.”

Some interesting pictures of the Tug Hill (NY) wind farm under construction can be found here:

http://www.tughill.org/MapleRidgeWindProject.htm

The Tug Hill development is primarily in farm country, as the photos illustrate. But there is little reason to believe the type of development documented in those photos would be much different in a more remote and less civilized area.

G.
Grumpy

That's an interesting comparison between an industrial timber operation, and an industrial wind farm operation. I might agree with some of your points and not others. But that was not the point of my note. Let me try to summarize the point I was getting at:

1) Both logging and wind farms might affect the aesthetic experience of recreation visitors to the area. (they affect mine, but not enough to keep me away.)

2) The Kibby area is not remote and not a wilderness. It's an industrial timber area. But it's still a nice place to visit. There are very few remote and/or wild areas in the Northeast. Perhaps a few in the Adirondacks (the headwaters of the Osswigatchee comes to mind).

3) The question this thread raised is "Where do Wind Farms belong?". In my opinion, an industrial timber operation would be an ideal place: there is already a road infrastructure in place (which of course would have to be extended) and it's already "spoiled" in an aesthetic sense.

The Baudrey Road/Kibby area probably gets several dozen hikers a year. Maybe a hundred, but I doubt it (including perhaps a dozen from this forum). As one of them (maybe I represent 1% - 3% of the total) I would be happy to sacrifice some marginal aesthetics for the health of the overall climate.

As for hunters, all I've met are more concerned with access (getting their SUV close to their dead moose) than aesthetics. Maybe I've met the wrong ones. I've never seen an fisherman in the area and I suspect the logging may not be so good for the streams (but admittedly they do a much better job than their grandfathers did).

I had an interesting thought when I wrote this note. Mount Blue (near Weld ME), another Franklin County 3K, is similar to Kibby in many ways. They are both have trailheads on dirt roads about 5-10 miles from the nearest state highway. They both have a fire warden's trail/road which a good 4 wheel drive might be able to use to get to the top, the both have fire towers, and they are both about the same elevation (Blue: 3180, Kibby: 3654). At first glance one might assume Kibby is more remote and wild, since Blue is closer to civilization (i.e. closer to I-95, closer to Boston, closer to the nearest Starbucks), but I would disagree: Blue is actually wilder. One sees no signs of civilization from the summit (The state roads and towns are hidden in the valleys) and one can even see Mt. Washington on a good day. And it get probably 10 or more times the hikers per year.

So where to put the wind farm? Or for that matter where to put a timber operation? Easy answer - stick it up in T1 R6 (Kibby Twp).

If instead of broad comparisons and arguments, we made a series of one on one comparisons like this, maybe we'd get somewhere on the issue.
 
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In sharing my four observations I was not commenting specifically on the Kibby area, but making what I believe are valid general comparisons between logging areas and windmill developments.

I think Papa Bear has made a valid point by suggesting that you really should look at specific siting proposals or options to decide "yes" or "no" on these things. But I also believe it is possible and even desirable to outline general expectations as to what the impacts of a wind farm (cute euphamism, really) will be before doing that.

(It is my view that in some real respects wind farms are every bit as intrusive, and over the long haul even moreso, than a well managed modern oil and gas field. But that is just my view. I don't mean to start a debate over that one here.)

Let's wonder, also, how wind farms measure up against hydroelectric power generating systems of different kinds.

G.
 
Sorry, no time to give this response the depth it needs due to storm prep.

A few quick points--

I've been exploring Kibby and the western boundary area since 1986. Parts still feel very remote to me, much less so since Plum Creek took ownership. As has been pointed out, there is little true real wilderness in New England. I am concerned Kibby sets a precedent for what is appropriate--and to me it seems pretty broad. For example, Wagner already has test turbines up in the Connecticut Headwaters (NH) area. They'd be readily visible from Aziscoos and Magalloway Mtns--which see only a few hikers so are unlikely to be problematic for the developers.

These projects are vast and of a scale that is not in any way comparable to a timber operation: turbine towers, huge concrete footings, permanent (graveled/plowed/mowed) roads, transmission towers and lines (that also must be kept mowed or herbacided). Much of this is built at elevations that currently see little human presence and have limited, if any, (road) access.

Unlike a logging operation, once built, these projects can't be easily "mitigated" if society determines it erred in it's rush to build these projects.

Mt Blue is a personal favorite of mine--a second only to Tumbledown in the Weld region. That's why I'm saddened to see there is a wind project planned for Roxbury that will change that region as well.

Yup. Hunters seem to be more and more like everyone else in the woods these days--drive right to where the action is. No different from most "campers" I see. The group I hunt with is a little different given we all hunt (birds) with dogs--active logging roads and hunting dogs are not a good mix. We'll still hunt Kibby. We just won't enjoy the night sky quite as much. Selfish--I know.

I'm open to new power sources, but in my opinion high altitude, rural wind projects don't make economic or environment sense.
 
I alawys find it ironic that most folks want to become more "green", seek alternative energy. lower their greenhouse gas emmissions. However when an alternative comes around, like wind, its not here, not there, etc. etc.

We truely need a real energy policy for this country. I live within 1 hour of 7 nuclear reactors, only 2 for electric power (the others were for making warheads} 2 hydro dams. There is talk about 2 biomass plants and expanding the nuclear energy production. I would love to see wind turbines join the mix. Coastal areas would be great.
 
I'd prefer them to be coastal & suburban or at least close to where the energy is needed. Who travels 93, 95, 90, 84, 91 (in southern NE) to take in the views.

Southern CT's Scenic Ride, the Merritt Parkway is scenic because of the close scenery, it's tree lined, there are little or no long distance views. (Over the bridge near Sikorsky you get a view but there's a helicopter manufacturer there, it's not scenic - interesting maybe)

Wind towers in LIS instead of a floating LNG terminal, I'd make it trade, except around the towers & where you run the line, very limited (& site specific) impact to shellfish beds. An LNG spill of fuel spill from ships using an LNG terminal & the damage would be more dramatic.

I understand tides are being considered as a way to harness hydro power, I don't know much about it though.

As someone mentioned & I guess I'm not surprised, Plum Creek is figuring into the discussion. Historically they have logged the land & then sold land they had stripped to developers. With the housing market in the can & retirement accounts so beaten up (& wall streeters are unemployed) there is not much of a market for fancy ski area vacation homes. Once they log an area, put roads in, kudos to their economic model for finding an alternative market for selling the land.:eek::(

Trying to get rights to (or finding) a large piece of land in a developed area would be tough, way up north, you can find large tracts owned by a single owner. In an earlier post, I mentioned Bolton CT has windy areas but you likely can't find more than one or two farms that haven’t been turned into developments that would be of appropriate size.

When doing Reddington a few years ago I noticed that the maze of logging roads, IMO, is almost ideally situated for a large vacation home development. (When solo, you have ample time to let your mind wander....;)) It was easy to see where the streets would go & where the biggest houses with the biggest windows would go.

A few trails up Kibby in that picture & you could almost envision another Bretton Woods.

The wind farm on the back side of Wachusetts would seem to show a 300 foot tower does not have to sit on the top of the highest ridge. But if you have a landowner of a large tract of land who no longer finds it economically viable (there's no timber left) to keep the land and a utility wants to negotiate with a single owner who has no other options for the land besides paying taxes & waiting for the trees to grow back- at least in this housing market/economy, that's sound business.

Who's going to protest way up north? AMC, SC, NHSPF (wrong letters sorry), ATC, hunters probably not the state though.

Build them between the Cape & Nantucket & you may get the state to complain if they are within sight & realtors & vacation homeowners tell them they will lose business as the rich will go to Newport instead of Nantucket, Commercial Fisherman, Yachting/power boaters, bird watchers, politicians who have homes in the area :D & other wealthy people who contribute to campaigns. Hunters may find that the animals have disappeared but no one is buying that they are hunting to feed their families unlike the commercial fisherman.

Where do Wind farms belong? Who knows.

Where will wind farms be built? Where ever the companies that will gain $ from the project will get the best ROI which also includes keeping expenses low. If land doesn't even have logging roads, I'm sure a partnership with a logging company will benefit both companies. If it's already been logged, as others mentioned, much of the land work has been done & the land is of little use to the timber company. (If they can swap land with logging roads for some pristine forest owned by the state or a Utility, they'd be willing to swap no doubt.
 
About 10 years ago I remember it was no to cellphone towers, they don't belong here, there, etc. Now cellphone towers kinda just "blend in" will wind turbines be like this in a decade or two?
 
How about 200 wind turbines all over VT?

Another twist to the thread.

The state of Vermont Telecommunications authority is looking at blanketing the state of VT with wind turbines to support their initiative to proved cell and internet services across the state.


http://http://www.timesargus.com/article/20090114/NEWS01/901140355/1002/NEWS01

These are 100 foot wind turbines and would have to be located quite densely compared to a cell phone network. They are a state entity so the permitting would be a lot less restrictive than a private developer would have to face.
 
We truely need a real energy policy for this country.

On this I wholeheartedly agree.

I suspect if one rationally looked at windpower, much of what is being built in the Northeast would make little sense. If we remain on our current course, we will spend hundreds of billions (or trillions) of public dollars on developments that make little sense from either an economic or environmental standpoint.

Lots of reading here: http://windpowerfacts.info/
(Yes, a biased site, but links to some good, relatively unbiased scientific papers, especially the National Academy report.)
 
On this I wholeheartedly agree.

I suspect if one rationally looked at windpower, much of what is being built in the Northeast would make little sense. If we remain on our current course, we will spend hundreds of billions (or trillions) of public dollars on developments that make little sense from either an economic or environmental standpoint.

I'm not a windpower expert by any means, but I did stay at.......Anyways, I do know that about the only way that you can store large amounts of power is via a pumped storage hydro plant like the one in Northfield, MA. Because of that, utilities must constantly balance supply and demand, by bringing on line and off line resources such as gas-turbine generators (expensive) and hydro. When you add wind to the mix, with its inherrent unpredictability, it means that you need to have hydro and gas-turbine on stand by for when the wind dies. This means that wind does not replace dirty coal fired generating plants, or nuclear, but rather hydro (this because coal/nuclear must be ramped up over time - i.e. they are not responsive enough to balance the grid to meet flunctuations in user demand and wind).

The Netherlands is a great generator of electricity via wind. They sell most of their wind generated output to other countries because they cannot integrate it into their supply. Bottom line is that wind tends to screw up the power grid and displaces only clean hydro sources or expensive gas turbine generation. Can't swear to any of this, but being a fairly technical guy, I have to say that it makes sense to me.
 
The stakes are high for those who revere the forests and mountains. The Bicknell's Thrush is losing alot of mating habitat.
skookumchuck-9.jpg


40% of this bird's mating habitat is in the mountains of NH. A wind factory in this endangered bird's habitat sucks. Destroying a ridge with a wind factory will not result in less coal being burned. It is pure fantasy. The harm to this bird is not fantasy.

All of the complicated equations in this thread ignore the big picture, which is that we have an energy defecit. Demand is growing here and around the world. Many third world countries are becoming enormous energy gobblers. They have lived in squalor and now we expect them to listen to our private-jet-flying "green" leaders preech energy conservation.

If we disgraced every ridge in NH, it would not result in a single coal plant closing. We would not import a single less barrel of oil. Prove me wrong.

Decide which is more important: protecting our forests and mountains or satisfying your illogical fantasy of destroying the coal and oil industries.

I find that only a fraction of those who claim environmental concern to be honest and logical.
 
Just saw an interesting statistic: to supply current US electrical power usage would require 750,000 sq mi of wind farms: approximately equal to the size of Texas, California, Montana, and Florida.

While I don't think anyone is suggesting that we attempt to supply all of our electrical power from wind, this statistic suggests that very large areas will be required for wind to supply a significant fraction.

The same article states the efficiency of pumped storage at less than 75%, so large amounts of power would be lost if we depend on it.

Ref: http://www.wse.jhu.edu/news-publications/winter09_14-21.pdf

Doug
 
Put them in cities.

Roof tops, the median strip of highways, Portland's Eastern Promanade, Boston's Esplanade, bridges, waterfronts, and on the grounds of every state capitol. Put them in the backyards of the end user.
 
NHPR had a story on last night and again this morning on the wind farm project. Unfortunately they don't seem to have it online. Searching did reveal the AMC's position paper, which was mentioned on the news.

http://www.outdoors.org/conservation/wind/granite-reliable-windpark.cfm

I'll keep an eye out for a posting of the actual NHPR story and update if they post it.

Tim
 
Re: "NHPR had a story on last night and again this morning on the wind farm project. Unfortunately they don't seem to have it online. Searching did reveal the AMC's position paper, which was mentioned on the news."


A friend/colleague of mine works at New Hampshire Public Radio and I've asked him for help on finding this NHPR story. I'll add any info I find.

Meanwhile, there should be some new content in the media about renewable energy in our part of the world, as there is a conference in Boston this weekend of the NorthEast Sustainable Energy Association with some pretty interesting topics. "Building Energy '09: Real Solutions, Real Experts" http://www.buildingenergy.nesea.org/highlights.php
 
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