workout or rest?

[Adk_dib]

I was going out every weekend this summer and working out on tuesdays and thursdays. I never felt real strong, in fact a couple of times my legs felt very weak. On blueberry about 2 months ago I had only done 400 feet and I felt right away that I did not have it. I was still on the lower section and did not even get to the steep section yet. Well I played golf two weekends before I did a couple of high peaks so did not get a chance to get out hiking. Well I felt great doing redfield. That was 3 weeks ago and I did nothing since. I went out this weekend and did not break a sweat. I think I need to rest more. Maybe I will cut my workoutw to only wednesday. Is it possible to workout to much? I did just turn 53 this weekend and maybe I need more rest between hikes. ANyone else run into this.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Oh yes. It's easy to become "over trained". Your body makes adjustments during the rest period. The older you get, the longer this recovery period becomes. I noticed, during my bicycle racing career, that when I was 30, I could ride hard 3 or 4 days a week and still race on the weekends. That soon was reduced to 2 or 3, and while I am no longer racing (I'm 45 now), if I want to be rested enough for a large weekend effort, I don't do anything too strenuous Thursday or Friday.

Tim

 

[dr_wu002]

There was a semi-interesting article about this in the WSJ today.

-Dr. Wu

 

[Little Rickie]

ANyone else run into this.

All the time man, all the time.

 

[DougPaul]

ANyone else run into this.

Been fighting it for a number of years, see below:

There was a semi-interesting article about this in the WSJ today.

This article talks about a gradual overtraining where one gets gradually weaker or feels chronically tired from too much exercise and not enough rest. Another article may be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtraining.


There is another kind which I call "catastrophic overtraining". (References are much harder to find on this kind, and the ones that I have found don't have much useful to say...) Since I haven't been able to find much general info on it, I will describe what happens to me. After a day of hiking or certain other kinds of exercise during which I feel fine, I can lose so much strength in my quads over the next few days that I have difficulty getting down stairs. Recovery requires a month to several months (or more) of rest followed by conservative exercises. It appears that absorbing energy in my quads while descending (or absorbing energy in my quads from the pounding of fast walking) are the causative actions. (Note, absorbing energy in a muscle is known as an eccentric contraction. There is evidence that it is trained separately from producing energy in one's muscles (concentric contractions).) Prevention involves specifically training the eccentric contractions in my quads.

Back before my broken leg, I got catastrophic overtraining twice (a year or more apart) in my quads from two sizable hikes a week apart with rest in between. Again, I felt fine during both hikes and symptoms started a day or two after the second hike and increased over a few more days.

Since my broken leg and recovery (the quads were not damaged in the accident--they were damaged surgically and deconditioned while waiting for the bones to heal), I have had much more severe problems with it. It has been a major factor limiting my ability to hike since then.

Doug

 

[expat]

Any meds?

Sometimes medications can have that effect. Maybe do some research if you're taking any. I have hypertension and was taking a diuretic for it. At one point, I couldn't go uphill at all if I had a pack on. I found some references about diuretics effects that indicated the possibility of muscle issues, so I talked to my doctor and changed the Rx, and now everything is fine.

I had been on the diuretics for some time, but the effect was cumulative over time.

 

[Tom Rankin]

I'm glad to say I do not have the problem of over training!

 

[dirtpig67]

I am a medium distance runner and a notorious chronic overtrainer. I have to make a serious conscious effort to include the proper amount of rest into my training regime or I tend to overdo it. The gradual overtraining description fits me perfectly. Gradually over a couple of months I tend to slowly "wear down". Luckily, I can now recognize this and when it starts up I usually take a week or two off completely from running or any lower body workouts. After the break, I am back to normal again.

I think the biggest thing is recognizing how your body works and how your body reacts to physical training or activity. Everyone is going to react differently to physical activity so what may work for others may not work for you. In the end, it is just a matter of trial and error to figure this all out, but reading up on what others have to say about rest and recovery after physical activity is a good place to start to find what your body needs for proper recovery.

 

[Little Rickie]

I can lose so much strength in my quads over the next few days that I have difficulty getting down stairs.

I thought it was just me. My quads can feel weak for a week. They work but they feel weak and fatigue easily.

It appears that absorbing energy in my quads while descending (or absorbing energy in my quads from the pounding of fast walking) are the causative actions

I'm just learning that and have started walking down stairs more. May try squats with weights? Bike riding hits my quads hard as well. Long walks on sidewalks or paved road seem to raise hell as well. That's proabably a shock thing.


I couldn't do a major hike two weekends in a row. I'm usually not feeling good until mid week after a big hike. At best I can do some light recovery exercise later in the week and limit my 2nd weekend to a 2 hr hike or an hour of stairs.

I'm sure there is other stuff going on in my body besides the pain going away and strength returning.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Riding a free-wheeled bicycle does not train the eccentric component of your quads, specifically the VMO - this was a contributor to my knee problems...

Tim

 

[Snowflea]

Of course it is possible to work out too much, but hiking on weekends and working out two days during the week doesn't sound like overdoing it.

Other considerations: How is your diet? General health? How much sleep do you get? Not days off WRT exercise but how much actual sleep? Sleep is way underrated, IMHO.

 

[roadtripper]

I'd go to your primary care and ask for a Presidential-quality physical. Get blood work done and check everything. Force the doctor to answer all your questions (make a list before you go). Check for things like low iron & low testosterone. Low amounts of either will make you feel sluggish sometimes.

Doesn't hurt to check all these things every few years.

 

[DougPaul]

I can lose so much strength in my quads over the next few days that I have difficulty getting down stairs.

I thought it was just me. My quads can feel weak for a week. They work but they feel weak and fatigue easily.

There is also a chronic form of the "catastrophic" overtraining...

I have been yoyo-ing since my accident. I'd build up some strength, go out and do something, and all too often redevelop the catastrophic overtraining. Since the last serious reinjury a year ago, I have taken 10 months off to rest* and have been able to hike Mt Carr (2K ft vert) 2 months ago and Moosilauke (2.5K ft vert) a week ago--in both cases with a slow and careful descent using poles.

* During rest, I can walk (but not so fast that I have a hard heel strike), trad XC ski on easy terrain (no downhill or Tele), and ride my bike (on relatively smooth roads). None of these seemed to bother the quads. (And none requires much energy to be absorbed in the quads.)

One of the difficulties in dealing with overtraining is that you may feel OK, but the muscle is still not able to handle the desired load. I had to learn to wait longer and longer before resuming activities... (As noted above, my last rest was 10 months.) I've lost count of how many times I reinjured, but I tried to learn from each one to try to figure out how to beat the problem.

I'm just learning that and have started walking down stairs more. May try squats with weights? Bike riding hits my quads hard as well. Long walks on sidewalks or paved road seem to raise hell as well. That's proabably a shock thing.

Initially after an injury/reinjury I have to wait a month to six weeks before beginning exercises. I start with some basic hip and knee exercises given to me by my PT (using Therabands (big rubber bands) and weights) and then move on to other exercises. Walking down stairs (or a hill), with weight as you get stronger is good. As Tim noted, bike riding is good for training the uphill motions (concentric contractions), but not for training the downhill energy absorption (concentric contractions). (I was in fine biking shape leading into one of those 2 hikes a week apart incidents mentioned in my previous post.)

There is a whole set of exercises for eccentric contractions: for instance lift with both arms/legs and lower with one. (Eg a squat using both legs on the raise and one leg on the lower.) Or use a helper on the raise (weight lifters sometimes do this). Jumping (in place) is another exercise to stress energy absorption. (My PT liked 3 sets of 20--work up to it slowly.) Lunges are another good one for working the quads both ways. And, of course, allow adequate rest between sessions (at least a day--maybe more).

As for walking on sidewalks, if you walk below a certain speed (3.1 mph for me), you can have a soft heel strike. Above that speed requires a hard heel strike and that you absorb large amounts of energy in your quads. (I used to be able to walk at 3.8-4.0 mph...) You can feel the heel strike--try slowing down until you are only using a soft heel strike. And don't let anyone rush you when you are walking with others.

I couldn't do a major hike two weekends in a row. I'm usually not feeling good until mid week after a big hike. At best I can do some light recovery exercise later in the week and limit my 2nd weekend to a 2 hr hike or an hour of stairs.

As noted above, it takes me 4-6 weeks to recover from the basic injury before restarting training. And then I need to carefully avoid reinjuring. (Mentally, this required me to simply give up on certain activities for the time being. Concede the battle in the hope of winning the war...)

I find that it takes me at least a week to fully asses the effects of an activity such as hiking. The legs can feel OK for a day or two (just normal stiffness) and then weaken over the next few days. Generally, if nothing has happened within a week, I figure that I'm probably OK. (But note my earlier problems from two hikes with a week of rest in between.)

I'm sure there is other stuff going on in my body besides the pain going away and strength returning.

I can't speak to that, but beating this kind of problem can be tough. I went through a similar process with a wear-and-tear knee injury--it took me ten years but it hasn't bothered me since.

Doug

 

[dirtpig67]

Of course it is possible to work out too much, but hiking on weekends and working out two days during the week doesn't sound like overdoing it.

Other considerations: How is your diet? General health? How much sleep do you get? Not days off WRT exercise but how much actual sleep? Sleep is way underrated, IMHO.

I was reading this thread again, and I was thinking the same thing. There is probably something else going. It may be as simple as an overall fitness level issue.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Lunges are another good one for working the quads both ways.

My orth surgeon does not recommend anyone ever do lunges - he believes they are far too stressful on your knees. Your mileage may vary of course. I stay away from them, but I do have some exercises to recommend - go read the thread on my knees.

Tim

 

[Mike P.]

as I've gotten older, the need for decent sleep has increased. If I don't get a decent amount of sleep a couple ff days before a hike, I'm under performing. (the weight isn't helping now but I can feel the added sluggishness from poor sleeping habits.)

 

[Peakbagr]

Thanks for starting this excellent thread.

As I get older, my reaction and recovery from strenuous exercise has changed. In my 20's and 30's I could run 4x-5x a week, do a tough Saturday hike and then do another tough hike or a long run on Sunday and never really feel the strain.

Knee and back injuries have seriously curtailed my training and I've substituted cycling and gym machines for running.
Long hikes seem to tire my legs for longer than they used to and like others, I don't heal from an injury as quickly.
I get a thorough annual physical, but some good questions posed here about whether there is a chemical or vitamin component.

 

[Little Rickie]

a squat using both legs on the raise and one leg on the lower.

I'll try that but only 1/3 to 1/2 way down though.

try slowing down until you are only using a soft heel strike. And don't let anyone rush you when you are walking with others.

No problem there, just ask my hiking partners.

I find that it takes me at least a week to fully asses the effects of an activity such as hiking.

Again I thought it was only me.

It's tough getting old. I wasn't that much of an athlete to begin with.

Never stop trying, just be smart about it.

 

[Sadie]

It may just be overall rest through the week. I avoid workouts prior to a weekend of a serious hike. I'm not afraid of overtraining, just wearing myself out and not being well rested-- which makes an enormous impact on me. If you are working all week and adding a workout at the end of the workday, it just may leave you more exhausted at the end of the week. Just a thought.

 

[DougPaul]

a squat using both legs on the raise and one leg on the lower.

I'll try that but only 1/3 to 1/2 way down though.

Just do what is comfortable and build up slowly. It may be worth while to wait until you can do 3x20 normal two-legged squats before trying this version.

One piece of advice that I have seen is to not let your thighs get below horizontal--going too far down puts large amounts of stress on the knee. This can be done by doing the squats above a chair of an appropriate height such that your butt hits the chair before you get too low.

Doug