Requesting Advice on Winter backpacking

Here is the link to the AMC Winter Hiking and Backpacking Program starting on November 18:

Juniper said:

If you don't have down booties (or don't have room to carry them) and are stuck with just your hiking boots and a spare pair of socks you'd like to keep clean and dry for the evenings, just carry a couple of extra plastic bags with you. After you change into your clean socks, put a plastic bag over each foot and then put your boots back on.

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Even better, put on a thin (wool or polyester) liner sock, a plastic bag (VBL), a thick wool (insulating) sock, another plastic bag, and then the boots*. The plastic bags keep the wool insulating sock dry and the heat which leaks out will start to dry your boots.

* water can get into your socks both from your feet and from the outside.

Another substitute for down/polyester booties is socks inside heavy nylon** stuff sacks. A VBL, as described above, will help to keep the wool insulating sock dry.

** you don't want silnylon here...

If you use VBL socks, it is a good idea to take them off in the sleeping bag to allow your feet to dry out to prevent trenchfoot.

If you use leather boots or boots/liners that can absorb moisture, you will need to keep them in your sleeping bag overnight. Otherwise you will end up with frozen lumps the next morning. (And as cbcbd noted, dry your wet socks and gloves/mittens in the sack with you overnight.)

And yes, you will have to bring anything else that you do not want to freeze into your sleeping bag overnight. Include a (well sealed) water bottle so you can drink at night.

Doug

Lots of thanks!

THANKS TO ALL for the great response! You gave us lots of great ideas for us to try!

DougPaul, I appreciate your initial concerns, as you don’t know anything about us or our hiking habits… I can give you a short run-down of the issues you mentioned:
** No cotton, all Smartwool, down and polyester (fleece, winter techwick)
** We do have winter boots, although we didn’t have them on this past weekend – which is the trip that prompted the questions in the first place. We can’t really start wearing them until we’ve got snow.
** We always wear hats – even in summer if we’re on a ridge
** Hydration – this is a constant struggle for me regardless of season. My husband does much better than I do, but I’m working on it.

As for Oldsmores’ comments to #2 – HE’S GONNA HAVE TO ASK REAL NICE for me to get out of my sleeping bag with draft tubes all over. LOL

Valerie

I have several pairs of VBL sicks I use when winter camping, love them. But, it has to be cold enough to use them, like around 0° or below, otherwise my feet just stay damp and clammy. Before picking up the VBL socks, I used plastic bags, but they were only good for a day, then they'd become too messed up to use reliably.

I love the down booties, but cover them with some Neos Overshoes, which are just another layer of protection.

Different temperatures require different tactics as well, a 0° camping overnight is vastly different from a -40° overnight.

If you find yourself on the cool side when arriving at camp even though you've put on your insulating layers, take a shot of olive oil. Your brain recognizes it as a fat source and tells your body it's OK to start burning fat stores, which warms you up very quickly. Kinda thick going down, and you have to keep it warm, but it works.

I met you folks last year when we were heading up Liberty on February 17th. Was 7 degrees at the trailhead and we were already starting to delayer on the ascent. Didn't have doubts about your dayhiking knowledge, just trying to give some points I've experienced along the way regarding spending the night out.

Lawn Sale said:

If you find yourself on the cool side when arriving at camp even though you've put on your insulating layers, take a shot of olive oil. Your brain recognizes it as a fat source and tells your body it's OK to start burning fat stores, which warms you up very quickly. Kinda thick going down, and you have to keep it warm, but it works.

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I have never heard this before. Interesting trick.

kevinmac said:

Here is the link to the AMC Winter Hiking and Backpacking Program starting on November 18:

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All good advice but get some training and a good book on winter backpacking. The ADK has good workshops and the Boy Scouts has an excelent program.

I don't like to take off my wet stuff right away, except for my hat & gloves, because it will freez and never dry out. I put on more layers until my body heat takes most of the moisture out and then put them under my pads for the night, sometimes I sleep with them for more insulation. If they freez I wear them on top of my dry stuff until they are warm and switch around layers to suit my comfort level.

I keep dry stuff to sleep in and sleep with a warm water bottle(s). I also have something to drink as soon as I wake up. My boots are still waterproof so I don't get wet that way. I do loosen up my boot laces as much as possible so moisture vent out as I go about my chors.

Dry socks in a plastic bag in wet boots! The produce dept is a great source of plastic bags and the price is right. They don't weigh much so it's easy to pack away a few. Food service type gloves make a good layer for gloves and mittens as well.

I always have an extry dry layer of everything (hat, socks, gloves, long underware, turtle neck) in a garbage bag so no matter what I can walk out dry or be ready fo an emergency.

I like the quiet of a winter nite, it's wind down time from the work week for me. A little snow cover reflects light well and I have a candle lantern that gives off a lot of light as my night vision adjusts.

A little spirits with friends raises the spirits for me. After or while setting up camp. Hot spices takes meals up a notch or two and warms ths soul.

10 hours in the sack is no problem for me. Try meditating.

FYI I haven't camped in sub zeros yet but I plan for it if it happens.

Booties are on my equipment shopping list.

A very hardcore winter peakbagger once said to me:

Why winter camp with no fire when you can hike out at night?

(I greatly to prefer to have a fire, it's like night and day. But, there aren't too many places where you can have fires. Plus, if you're only allowed to use wood that is dead AND down then that's pretty restricting.)



The only thing I would add is what has worked well for me.

Put a Nalgene full of boiling water into your bag 10 minutes before turning in and sleep with it. Now you'll have a liter of water to get you going in the morning. (I just learned this recently and believe me it's a really good trick!) But first, you can pull your damp socks over the Nalgene and watch gleefully as dense clouds of steam rise off of them. (Also, you might want to check and make sure your Nalgene doesn't leak, not that I've ever had a leaky Nalgene.)

Also, put your damp base layer clothes back on, just before you start moving in the morning. Fresh dry ones are just going to get damp anyway. You can put them in a zip-lock bag and keep them warm in your sleeping bag.

If I was going to winter camp firelessly on a regular basis I would get plastic double boots.

Neil said:

you can pull your damp socks over the Nalgene and watch gleefully as dense clouds of steam rise off of them.
.

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I know about this but haven't gotten comfortable with the idea of drinking out of the bottle after that.

(Also, you might want to check and make sure your Nalgene doesn't leak, not that I've ever had a leaky Nalgene.)

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OOOpppsss But it was a cheap clone of a Nalgene made in China.

Little Rickie said:

I know about this but haven't gotten comfortable with the idea of drinking out of the bottle after that.

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You put the water on the inside and the socks on the outside. The cap covers the threads.

Doug

I would second kevinmac's advice. Take the AMC's Winter Hiking Program, and then go with them on their backpacks. Extremely experienced leaders, you'll get a chance to meet a lot of other folks, and get to see the best practices put into action.

Winter backpacking is really something best done in groups. It's more fun--you'll have people to play with once the sun goes down--and it's safer.

Brian

Neil said:

But first, you can pull your damp socks over the Nalgene and watch gleefully as dense clouds of steam rise off of them.

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Little Rickie said:

I know about this but haven't gotten comfortable with the idea of drinking out of the bottle after that.

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I winter camped with a guy last year that was into the “lite is right” philosophy.
He only carried one water bottle. It was used as a drink bottle and a pee bottle.
Day in and Day out.

Anyone here want to admit to that?

Craig said:

I winter camped with a guy last year that was into the “lite is right” philosophy.
He only carried one water bottle. It was used as a drink bottle and a pee bottle.
Day in and Day out.

Anyone here want to admit to that?

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Ha, reminds me of the movie "Beerfest":

Great Gam Gam: "They also practice by drinking the urine of a ram."

Todd: "The-- The what?"

Great Gam Gam: "They drink ram's piss."

Fink: "Because of the pH balance?"

Great Gam Gam: "No. Because if you can drink ram's piss, f*** you can drink almost anything."



Brian

Winter in the woods...

nothing like it- especially if you can spend the night out. Here is is some stuff I do...hope it helps

Take down booties to wear in camp. Great for that midnight trip to pee. Great to sleep in.

If your boots (or socks) freeze solid- use a hot water bottle to warm them up or to "loosen" them up.

Hiking at night- great to do by moonlight, starlight--it's magical!

Whenever you stop moving, put on more clothing asap!

If your feet are cold, put on a hat!

Hot water bottle to sleep with.

Feed the furance before turning in
empty the bladder
wear a balaclava to bed
fill up dead air space in your sleeping bag with the most efficient insultated clothing like a down jacket

Hmm, so much talk about Nalgene and no one has yet suggested the use of a second nalgene (identified with duct tape on it) to answer the call of nature at 2am

Holding it in does consume some energy and does cool you down.

Fish

Oh, I have one of those. Marked with a thick slab of duct tape in the opposite orientation of any of my others, and it's one of the glowing-yellow wide-mouth bottles. Definitely a must in the tent in the winter. The part everyone hates, though, is that after using it you have to put it in your sleeping bag for the rest of the night, lest it freeze, leaving you unable to pour it out in the morning.

MichaelJ said:

Oh, I have one of those. Marked with a thick slab of duct tape in the opposite orientation of any of my others, and it's one of the glowing-yellow wide-mouth bottles. Definitely a must in the tent in the winter. The part everyone hates, though, is that after using it you have to put it in your sleeping bag for the rest of the night, lest it freeze, leaving you unable to pour it out in the morning.

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It's been a part of my routine for a long time.

And doesn't everyone recommend sleeping with a warm Nalgene?

hikingfish said:

Holding it in does consume some energy and does cool you down.

Fish

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I have heard this said a lot. Does anyone have a link or article showing this evidence. Its not that I disbelieve it, rather just curious.

Brian

hikingfish said:

Holding it in does consume some energy and does cool you down.

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NewHampshire said:

I have heard this said a lot. Does anyone have a link or article showing this evidence. Its not that I disbelieve it, rather just curious.

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There is a good reason to disbelieve it--it is a common myth.

The cause-and-effect is reversed.

First you get cold and the peripheral blood vessels constrict. This decreases the desired volume of the circulatory system, so the kidneys dump some water to get rid of the excess volume.

Holding it in creates some agony, but consumes no thermal energy.

Doug

DougPaul said:

There is a good reason to disbelieve it--it is a common myth.

The cause-and-effect is reversed.

First you get cold and the peripheral blood vessels constrict. This decreases the desired volume of the circulatory system, so the kidneys dump some water to get rid of the excess volume.

Holding it in creates some agony, but consumes no thermal energy.

Doug

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You know, it does kind of make sense really that it does not consume any energy as you say. I mean, the urine is already heated inside your body, so it is in equlibrium, neither able to warm any more nor allowed to give off any more heat since it is basically surrounded by a human furnace.

As usual Doug you come through with the answers.

Brian