Poll: Do you typically carry overnight gear on a winter 4K dayhike?

The Chouinard quote was meant in jest, BTW.

A short story:

I used to date an EMT who was not much fun to hike with. At all. Constant stories of severed femoral arteries and that kind of stuff. Real charming subjects of discussion in the great outdoors!

She insisted that I carry a sleeping bag and the like...on a day hike of the Caps Ridge Trail. Great way to turn a fun scramble into a complete drag.

We didn't hike together much after that fiasco.

The End

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I almost always carry my Blizzard Bag and some hand warmers. I have practiced constructing and overnighting in a few different kinds of snow shelters.

I am all for people carrying as much gear as they feel comfortable with, but what annoys me are the people of that persuasion that insist that you do the same. The judgmental BS really gets old.

Kevin Rooney said:

Ummm ... maybe a poll should be taken as to whether anyone's mind has been changed as a result of this thread?

Is this thread suffering from a bit of testosterone toxicity?

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no thread on any topic has changed my mind about anything. i use this board for entertainment and i just spew out my opinions because i got nothing better to do at work. i don't think that i'm changing minds either.
i've hiked with people who carry the kitchen sink and as long as you can keep up or don't mind if i go ahead.. or hell, i've hiked with people who have a ton more crap in their pack and they've motored way faster than i have! and where's the estrogen love?

Kevin Rooney said:

Die your own death.

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leaf said:

and where's the estrogen love?

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The funny thing is that I think Kevin Rooney is somehow convinced that I'm a boy!

-Dr. Wu

Naw, Frank - we all you who you are - a visitor from the planet Zorgon, renowed for it's hydrogenous beings.

Just trying to make a plea for tolerance at a time when that seems in short supply. If Leaf wants to fly across the snow without denting it and up vertical ice in her magic undies, and Trish wants to carry enough gear to keep her little one safe no matter what, it's all good.

Anyone ever read Sheldon Kopp, and his "Escatological Laundry List"? I often think of #41. You are free to do whatever you like. You need only to face the consequences.

dr_wu002 said:

What I totally disagree with is the attitude that not taking a sleeping bag, tent, stove on winter hikes somehow makes you negligent. -Dr. Wu

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I agree with this.

When I mentioned that I would be negligent if I didn't have all that stuff with me when taking my child, that is my personal opinion for me and me alone. I do not yet have what I deem proper skills to make a decent snowcave, therefore I carry a bivy. I'm not adept at starting a fire without weatherproof matches, so I carry them.

I don't believe there's a blanket must-carry list for everyone, it's all dependent on the person's level of skill and experience, and what he/she can do with whatever he/she has.

I carry some extra gear because I have this dream that one day I'll come upon Dr_Wu in the woods, shivering and injured, and I'll be able to help him (or her ), write a great trip report and get so many freakin greenies that it overloads the system !

That and Karma. If I carry the extra gear (about 4lbs worth), I'll never need it.

What IS "extra" ? Seriously. Is a down parka extra ? I almost never use mine. The bivy (really just a nylon bag, waterproof on the bottom) and the ensolite pad I carry would be considered extra. I carry 1 liter of water and 1 of Gatoraid, drinking a lot before and after the hike. I used to carry 3 liters on the hike. I carry snacks that I rarely finish. I have an emergency kit with fire starting stuff, but not a stove. In addition to the capilene and softshell jacket and pants I wear, I carry a change of capilene, socks, gloves and hardshell glove, jacket and pant. I've been thinking that I could wear the hardshell pant and leave the softshell pant home.

I carry enough gear to survive the night or to render assistance to others if need be. I do not snivel and whine about the weight, nor do I expect others to do the same. My pack, my choice. Now if you would just cover the damn yellow snow, life would be perfect!

Chip said:

I carry some extra gear because I have this dream that one day I'll come upon Dr_Wu in the woods, shivering and injured, and I'll be able to help him (or her ), write a great trip report and get so many freakin greenies that it overloads the system !

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I don't know about you, but I'd run. I'm telling you right now it'd be a ruse to get you to snuggle into a tight-fittin' bivy sack with me. Doubt you wanna be that close to some dude that's both drunk and nekkid...

-Dr. Wu

cbcbd said:

Didn't someone here say something about knowing when to turn back?
[...]
Know thyself and you'll probably live a little longer in the mountains

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This has a lot of merit, IMO.

Reading this thread, there are valid points from the Fast n' Light camp (Wu, Doug, etc.) as well as the Be Prepared contingent (Trish, Maddy, et. al). There are "advantages and limitations" -- as my BSA climbing director likes to say -- to both approaches.

As Doug notes, at some point you can carry so much stuff that you'll be slowed down/use more energy that the hike will take longer than it could/should which could lead to a higher probability of "mistakes" causing injury/benighting. The flip side is that, even ultralight/ultrafit hikers could slip on ice/posthole/fall in a spruce trap, rendering them immobile in cold weather, where a modicum of additional gear could play into a life-or-death situation.

IMO, much of what one carries relates to their experience. A new winter hiker might carry the full compliment of extra clothes, bag/bivy sack, stove, etc., where a seaoned winter wanderer might "know thyself" well enough to leave a lot of that stuff home and be equally as comfortable with their decision.

I've seen this exact scenario in my rock/ice climbing. When I started leading, I placed a LOT of gear protection on each pitch. Now that my skills have improved and I've also gotten some more climbs under my harness (as it were), I'm comfortable running things out a bit more.

At the end o' the day, though, it comes down to YOUR comfort level. Take what YOU think you need to complete the hike.

What I find particularly interesting is that some of the most ardent supporters from each camp are perfectly fine with the people in the other camp bringing/not bringing whatever they want. "Hike your own hike," indeed.

Kevin Rooney said:

Anyone ever read Sheldon Kopp, and his "Escatological Laundry List"? I often think of #41. You are free to do whatever you like. You need only to face the consequences.

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That's a great quote. I agree wholeheartedly. That really is the definition of freedom, and I'm all for it. Carry as much or as little as you like, don't judge others for what they do, and live and let live. I might look silly to you with my big ol' pack, but I'm the only one paying the price for lugging a bunch of extra stuff up with me.

Lots of good ideas to think about. Carry what you need to feel confident where you are and what you're doing.

MadRiver said:

I carry enough gear to survive the night or to render assistance to others if need be.

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That reminds me of another story. I was doing a loop in the Needles section of Canyonlands NP, headed back to the trailhead after a 15 mile trail run. I had a small hydration pack, some food and water, some clothes, a headlight and a map. As night was falling, I came across a young hiker with a huge backpack sitting on the side of the trails, obviously very upset. His "friends" had basically walked away from him, as he couldn't keep up - he was out of shape, overweight, and overburdened, and simply couldn't carry his pack any further. So I took my hydration pack and put in inside his backpack and carried it for him the remaining 3 miles to his "friends", who I had a few choice words for.

So I suggest to everyone: Be nice to the lightly loaded, fast movin' folks out there...they just may save YOUR butt someday.

Tim Seaver said:

So I suggest to everyone: Be nice to the lightly loaded, fast movin' folks out there...they just may save YOUR butt someday.

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Or, just be nice to everyone and judge not.

I think there should be a poll (actually there may have been a poll) about how many people take overnight gear on day hikes during the other 3 seasons so we can do a comparison. It seems from reading other people's responses is that most people are afraid of hypothermia. Although hypothermia is most popularly thought of as a winter problem, hiking in spring, summer, and fall can also expose you to hypothermia, albeit, less likely.

Just because of winter conditions shouldn't necessarily warrant a change in what people carry; the emergency essentials should still be accounted for in all hiking seasons, including water, shelter, food, etc.

My personal philosophy is that I have less tolerance to conditions in the winter. If after breaking trail for x miles and I'm exhausted, I have less tolerance to continue further ahead, especially if darkness is coming quickly. But in the summer, if after hiking x miles and the time is late, I'll still push myself to reach the peak, etc. If I am wet and soaked during the winter, I make an effort to get/stay dry quicker, and won't hesitate to turn around. In the summer, I am more apt to push myself.

Also, the conditions that worry me the most is that in-between period, when it's high 30s to low 40s and raining -- not unlike what is forecast this weekend. I find that staying relatively dry and warm during this time is extremely difficult and more dangerous.

Aviarome

Searching for "cold" hard facts re: "emergency gear"!

I don't think what any of us say on this topic makes a whole lot of difference in the broad scheme of things. Experience is the best teacher and because we cannot assume that we will never be seriously injured on a hike, no matter how fit or cautious we are, I think it would be a great idea to do a field test in a controlled situation.

I suggest this scenario.
Pretend you have an open leg fx. Go out in your backyard at about 5pm solo with your pack filled with the gear you would take on a hike in winter. Do this on a night when it's a bit stormy, the winds are blowing, snow or rain is falling, and the temps are 0-20. Plan to spend the next 36 hrs in that same spot because you are unable to move. No cell service. No PLB. No cheating. You can only use whatever gear you brought with you. It would be very safe because you could always opt to run into the house if the situation became intolerable. Document your experience and post the results on VFTT.

Also, has anyone on the boards ever spent a prolonged period of time, say 24-36 hrs, with a serious injury, unable to move, in adverse conditions, with no bivy gear? Would you be willing to share your observations and conclusions? Has anyone had an experience that changed their mind about what they should or should not carry?

It would be nice to get some real statistics based on facts rather on conjecture alone. I don't think pointing fingers at each other, accusing some of being negligent, and others as being overcautious, is the way to go. This topic is brought up frequently and we keep going around and around the same circle getting nowhere fast. It's the "emergency gear" hamster wheel.

We need some "cold" hard facts on which to base our conclusions. What better way than with "experiential learning?"

If there are no takers for the study, I would go with JDub's statement "Take what YOU think you need to complete the hike." Most often we survive in spite of ourselves and in the majority of cases we will "live and learn". And if we don't, it's been a wild ride!

Maddy said:

I don't think pointing fingers at each other, accusing some of being negligent, and others as being overcautious, is the way to go.

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I don't think anyone has been pointing fingers on this thread, unless I've missed something. I certainly wouldn't accuse anyone of being negligent just because they carry less than I feel I should.

I've enjoyed reading all the responses, from both camps, and I'm learning quite a bit. Good thread!

I got a very nice compliment a month or so a go from Bikehikeskifish. He commented that I was traveling very light on a day hike on a moderately cold day to Moriah. When I got home I took stock of my gear. It consisted of

1) Down Parka,
2) Mylar coated "Emergency Survival Sleeping Bag" made by SE
3) 2.5 liters of 1:1 Gatorade:Tang mix
4) About a 1000 calories of gorp (I weigh it out on a scale and calculate it from info on the food packaging)
5) Rain jacket and pants
6) Googles
7) Balaclava
8) Map, compass and GPS
9) Fire starting materials.
10) Fanny pad and 3/4" strapping to keep my butt warm should I want to sit down, and make a leg splint if needed.
11) Snowshoe repair kit
12) Katoola microspikes
13) Warmer mittens with inner fleece gloves
14) Light glove liners
15) Four pairs of hand warmers
16) Camera
17) Drugs (Naproxin, Sudafed, Aspirin, Ranitidin, Imodium, Benadril, Bandaids)
18) Head lamp, whistle, Leatherman Wave knife
19) Spare batteries
20) Cell phone
21) Spare set of glasses and sunglasses
22) Picture of my wife and kids
23) Few paper towels as a hankerchief

24) I've since added a "Quicky" butt sled

From the car I typically wear: Techwear shirt, Mammut Schoeller fabric softshell jacket, skiband, polyester underwear, running tights over Mountain hardwear softshell pants, woolsocks over polyester sockliners, winter Northface single layer insulated boots, MSR Denali evo ascent snowshoes, hiking poles. If the temps are over 10 degrees Farenheit I'll typically take off the softshell jacket after about the first mile or two.

I do wear the down parka on occasion it really helped on Algonquin and Wright and also Moriah and the Twins this winter. Most of this knowledge I gained from 1) Chip, 2) International Mountain Guides at Rainier, 3) Tom Rankin, 4) VftT. Thank you to all.

Much of this stuff is already together so it does not take more than about a half hour to get it together before a hike.

TrishandAlex said:

I don't think anyone has been pointing fingers on this thread, unless I've missed something. I certainly wouldn't accuse anyone of being negligent just because they carry less than I feel I should.

I've enjoyed reading all the responses, from both camps, and I'm learning quite a bit. Good thread!

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"Pointing fingers" was most certainly not the politically correct way of expressing myself. Thanks for "pointing" that out. I am not as precise a writer as many on the boards, but I keep working at it. Ever onward!

As always, I am very much enjoying this thread. It's always a hot topic and a most wonderful learning experience. Ya gotta love it!
We have some newbies on the boards and I'm certain that they appreciate it to.

I have found an answer to this question of emergency gear on ROT. We don't need a study after all. We need THIS! Carry some in your pack, and after several servings you won't care if you have bivy gear or not!


http://www.trekneat.com/deen/trekn-eat-products/products/katadynshopconnect/trekn-eat-wein/

Paradox said:

I got a very nice compliment a month or so a go from Bikehikeskifish. He commented that I was traveling very light on a day hike on a moderately cold day to Moriah. When I got home I took stock of my gear. It consisted of

1) Down Parka,
2) Mylar coated "Emergency Survival Sleeping Bag" made by SE
3) 2.5 liters of 1:1 Gatorade:Tang mix
4) About a 1000 calories of gorp (I weigh it out on a scale and calculate it from info on the food packaging)
5) Rain jacket and pants
6) Googles
7) Balaclava ...

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I'd bring googles, too, cause it helps you to find all sorts of things.

Casual Hiker said:

I'd bring googles, too, cause it helps you to find all sorts of things.

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Easy. That's the only one on his list I can actually take credit for. He'd ask me a question, and I'd say "Google it." !