NH F&G in the RED!!!!! Again

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I like the question that has been raised "what can WE do." Having a way to contribute directly to a SAR fund would be ideal. I know that some people who are interested in conservation might buy a state or federal duck stamp and never go hunting. We could have a 'boot' stamp. and place it on the out side toe on th left boot or something. Seriously I bet many would donate to help the beleagured F&G help us.
 
Some good ideas, Maddy. Why spend our efforts complaining when brain storming for ideas could have an effect. Who knows, F&G are outdoors types and may be our friends here.

So here's my thought: As Kevin and others said, I agree education is key, but perhaps a slick "Hike Safe" type program isn't catching the attention it is intended to. I'm not sure the best way to "market" without being slick, though. Every time we're out in the mountains we see the clueless wandering, and I was one myself some years ago. Last weekend we saw a teen sitting along the trail who was suffering with an ugly broken blister on a toe. Though pleasant, he stoically refused my first aid and looked surprised when I asked him if the low-cut, white sock he was wearing was cotton, which it appeared to be. Maybe he'll think about my comment, or the lightbulb will shine brighter if he reads about better socks in the future.

Who would be the best person to contact with suggestions.
There are so many name listed and I think it would be important to contact the individual who would be the most like to take us seriously.
 
I'll get my post in before this thread is closed because it's has many of its basis in politics, well government funding.

F&G is in the red as in most state govenments, tax collection is down, pension costs, state & town employee salaries and state costs are up.

If they added a $2.00 - $5.00 fee to my annual parking fee specifically for SAR cost, I'd be fine with that. (Disclaimer - I'm in the insurance business.)

Just because I have insurance doesn't mean I want to use it as soon as I see I'm low on water or it's getting dark & I don't have spare batteries for my headlamp, but if I fell & had a real injury, of if one of you had a real injury, (not, we ran out of beer:eek:) I'd be happy that my money was used wisely.

I bought a fishing license in CT after many years, so I'm okay with some of the costs here going elsehwere. (I've fished for many years on private family owned property & continue to do 90% of there)

May buy a 3-day or 7day license when in NY next month.
 
Who would be the best person to contact with suggestions.
There are so many name listed and I think it would be important to contact the individual who would be the most like to take us seriously.

The public face for the article was that dedicated servant "Col. Martin Garabedian" (aim high with these things). I see his name often in association with rescues. Good idea!
 
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I'm trying to think of a reason why fishing and hunting would require a permit/licence and hiking would not and I did come up with a possible valid reason. Fishing and hunting are potentially consuming a public resource (e.g., a fish or a deer) much like with needing a mining permit to remove minerals from public land. Hiking, at least in theory, takes nothing.

I can't imagine that the political implications of trying to sell the public a license for taking a walk would be too good either.

The deficit is a very real thing for F&G, so I don't mean to trivialize the impact on that agency, but the amount of money we are talking about ($26k) is trivial in any rational context outside of F&G's very real need to manage their budget.

I honestly do think there should be some revenue sharing from the USFS back to the agency that owns responsiblity for SAR in the WMNF, but thats probably a pretty big mountain to climb.
 
...I honestly do think there should be some revenue sharing from the USFS back to the agency that owns responsiblity for SAR in the WMNF, but thats probably a pretty big mountain to climb.

It's called “PILA” – Payment in lieu of Taxes

This year, NH received 1.726 Million in PITA dollars.

"Payments in Lieu of Taxes" (or PILT) are Federal payments to local governments that help offset losses in property taxes due to nontaxable Federal lands within their boundaries. The key law that implements the payments is Public Law 94-565, dated October 20, 1976. This law was rewritten and amended by Public Law 97-258 on September 13, 1982 and codified at Chapter 69, Title 31 of the United States Code. The Law recognizes that the inability of local governments to collect property taxes on Federally-owned land can create a financial impact.
PILT payments help local governments carry out such vital services as firefighting and police protection, construction of public schools and roads, and search-and-rescue operations. The payments are made annually for tax-exempt Federal lands administered by the BLM, the National Park Service, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (all agencies of the Interior Department), the U.S. Forest service (part of the U.S. Department of Agriculture), and for Federal water projects and some military installations. PILT payments are one of the ways that the Federal government can fulfill its role of being a good neighbor to local communities.
IMO, lack of funding should not be part of the backcountry rescue debate.
 
One reason why NHF&G always seems to be broke is that even it's constituents don't support it. I've talked about this with conservation officers. We talked about the percentage of fishermen who are in actually in posession of a fishing license when a C.O. cards them. In southern NH, the number is about 50%. That means that only one out of two people holding a rod has a license. That number grows to about 75% (3/4 have a license) in the Whites and a little higher than that in the North Country. (His theory on that is that the Whites and Pittsburg are "destination" fisheries used by more "serious" anglers.)

If F&G could figure a way to get those numbers closer to 99%, it's financial difficulties would lessen by a matter of degrees. One of their marketing campaigns is "Take Me Fishing". It should be "Take Me Fishing...Legally".


bob
 
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Hiking, at least in theory, takes nothing.

That is an oversimplification and not true.

What do OHRV users 'take'?

What do snowmobilers 'take'?

I am a catch and release fisherman, and fish for non-stocked species. So why should I need a license also.
 
One reason why NHF&G always seems to be broke is that even it's constituents don't support it. I've talked about this with conservation officers. We talked about the percentage of fishermen who are in actually in posession of a fishing license when a C.O. cards them. In southern NH, the number is about 50%. That means that only one out of two people holding a rod has a license. That number grows to about 75% (3/4 have a license) in the Whites and a little higher than that in the North Country. (His theory on that is that the Whites and Pittsburg are "destination" fisheries used by more "serious" anglers.)

If F&G could figure a way to get those numbers closer to 99%, it's financial difficulties would lessen by a matter of degrees. One of their marketing campaigns is "Take Me Fishing". It should be "Take Me Fishing...Legally".


bob

Its unfortunate, but many states dont have funding to enforce these kinds of laws (fishing license). i for one am guilty myself when i travel to Mass and head out for some unplanned fishing every now and again.
 
Sigh. I support SAR, but this article irritates me for one very specific reason (and completely staying out of the whole "how should SAR be funded" argument):

The Fiscal Year for the State of New Hampshire just started on July 1, so we are only ONE month into this year's budget.

As a general rule, when a budget is developed, if they have $180,000/year, all $180,000 isn't dumped in at the beginning. Frequently, it's divided over 12 months, although adjustments can be made for traditionally heavier or lighter use months. For these purposes, let's just assume they divided it evenly across the months.

What that means is that the budget is really $15,000/month. Admittedly, this July has been a tough month for SAR with a variety of rescues including multiple drownings/near drownings in lakes and people getting lost and injured in the mountains. The article states that they've spent $26,000 this month. Okay, $26,000 is greater than $15,000, so, yeah, technically SAR is in the red. There will (hopefully) be other months where the SAR costs are/will be less that balance that out.

On the flip side, revenue is usually plopped in to the budget when it is most likely to be incurred, so something like snowmobile registration revenue won't occur until around November/December. That will also help balance things out.

My opinion is that it's a disservice to publish an article like this with only one month's worth of data available. Yes, SAR has traditionally gone over budget and yes, going over budget in the first month of a fiscal year doesn't bode well for the rest of the year because you're constantly playing catch up, but there's entirely too many unknown factors for them to cry "we're in the red" already. Look at this again after you've got 6 or 9 months worth of data and I'll be more likely to support/defend you.
 
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It's a done deal. Sent my suggestions in to Officer Garabedian.

I told him I was a member of VFTT and that we discuss this topic often. Sure hope he gets some good suggestions from us. Anything to try to support those who risk life and limb for us when we are in need.

Even if they don't like any of them, at least we tried. That's all a hiker can do! :)
 
My issue is, and will always be, why these questions are limited to "mountains". The largest F&G cost this year was to find a drowned swimmer....
In years past, before hikers expected helicopter searches, many of the most expensive rescues were drownings that required search by dive teams - that's why they put the surcharge on boat registrations (although not all victims fell out of boats).

I don't see why hikers shouldn't pay for SAR costs through some sort of fee, but if you divide total SAR costs by total # of hikers it comes out to something like 10 cents a year. I'd be quite willing to pay $5 for a lifetime pass although I doubt I'll hike another 50 years, but those people proposing fees of $5/year or $1/hike are either clueless or ripoff artists.
 
This might not be in the same line of thought but, The state of new hampshire built a brand new parking area at purity pond in Eton NH for cartop boating. Why is this free parking for some, but I have to pay to park to walk in the woods?
 
I don't see why hikers shouldn't pay for SAR costs through some sort of fee, but if you divide total SAR costs by total # of hikers it comes out to something like 10 cents a year. I'd be quite willing to pay $5 for a lifetime pass although I doubt I'll hike another 50 years, but those people proposing fees of $5/year or $1/hike are either clueless or ripoff artists.
Roy always tells it like it is! Rock on!

-Dr. Wu
 
I don't see why hikers shouldn't pay for SAR costs through some sort of fee, but if you divide total SAR costs by total # of hikers it comes out to something like 10 cents a year. I'd be quite willing to pay $5 for a lifetime pass although I doubt I'll hike another 50 years, but those people proposing fees of $5/year or $1/hike are either clueless or ripoff artists.

I sent in 4 suggestions and this was one of them but the amount wasn't 10 cents. That would be really good. Most certainly affordable!:)
 
I don't mind paying. My concern/complaint is HOW?

But, I actually just saw a UL comment that I agreed with :)eek:)

Change the parking pass to $30-$35/year; $10 for a week; $5 for a day. Have the state and the Feds split the cost. It doesn't cover all trails, etc. but I figured that would be a way to cover the shortfall.

Negatives to that plan?
 
I don't mind paying. My concern/complaint is HOW?

But, I actually just saw a UL comment that I agreed with :)eek:)

Change the parking pass to $30-$35/year; $10 for a week; $5 for a day. Have the state and the Feds split the cost. It doesn't cover all trails, etc. but I figured that would be a way to cover the shortfall.

Negatives to that plan?

http://admin.state.nh.us/directory/procSearch_internet.asp?FName=Martin&LName
(Officer Colonel Martin Garabedian)
Nice Dug.
My feeling is there might be glitches to any plan but very often those can be worked out.
I don't think we should hold out on sharing our suggestions because they don't seem "perfect".
Just maybe...the powers that be they will find some of them useful.
Ever onward and upward!
 
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This might not be in the same line of thought but, The state of new hampshire built a brand new parking area at purity pond in Eton NH for cartop boating. Why is this free parking for some, but I have to pay to park to walk in the woods?

Boat ramps are usually built with a combination of Federal excise taxes on sporting equipment and state boat registration fees - look for placards or signs. Cartop boats may get a free ride if they don't pay these fees. There is no similar alternate revenue source for hikers.

Some states try to limit use of boat ramps to boaters. In VT for example, it is illegal to use a funded boat ramp as parking for a hike or bike trip - read the posted rules.

What are the total SAR costs? What is the total number of hikers in the Whites and where does the figure come from?
I believe the SAR costs for hikers are under $100,000 per year based on a previous note - remember that hunters, boaters, already chip in for their costs. This would put the cost under $1/year/person based solely on the number of hikers on Mt Monadnock alone. If you want to claim that the number is 17 cents instead, fine, but the folks who are talking $5/yr are way out of whack.

One idea not yet discussed is to change the state law to put the Forest Service in charge of SAR within the WMNF. There might be some boundary issues as there are near state lines but these would be minimal. Conservation officers could assist as cooperators but the big bills would go to Uncle Sugar.
 
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