Winter in the Whites and being prepared

Hi everyone !!! It has been so long since I have posted that I am not even sure how many of my old VFTT buddies still post and read here . . .
However, I have a situation that has me pondering and would love to hear other people's input/feedback:

Here is the situation:

I have a friend who has never hiked in winter. She is a very experienced hiker but has almost no winter hiking experience. She has another friend, who has a LOT of winter hiking experience and hiking experience in general from what she has told me who wants to take her hiking in the Whites in January.

As an introduction to Winter in the Whites, they will be going to Gray Knob and hiking the Northern Presidentials (possibly Washington also, not clear on this). She has no winter gear right now and little money and even though I will lend her some gear, she likely won't have what I consider to be a fully equipped winter pack.

I know Gray Knob is a safe place and getting there won't be too huge an issue but I am worried. Compared to her very cool and hip friend, I sound like an old worried mother. I am trying to impress upon her the importance of NOT underestimating winter above treeline in the Whites. I want her to be informed and go very prepared both gearwise and also mentally. I was a novice hiker once and I don't want to discourage her but I am a little worried. However, my emails to her sound so "mother hen" compared to the poetic sounding emails from her other friend.

Am I being too dramatic or worrying too much?
What is the best advice you would give her if she were someone you cared very much about? I want her to experience winter in the Whites, it is SUCH an amazing place . . . I wish I could not worry so much. Thoughts?

sli74

Hi Seema! you still have plenty of buddies here!

That's a hard place for you to be. Incidents like Derek Tinkham immediately come to mind.Anyone who wants to take a rookie into "the worst weather in the world" is a cause for concern.

Perhaps your friend can compile a list of gear that her "guide" is recommending. If there's no list, I'd be on my knees begging her not to go. All you can really do is warn and educate, and make sure she's equipped with the necessities.

I think your concerns are justified. Hiking the Northern Presis in winter as one's first winter hike is nuts, and probably even more so if she's with someone who is experienced and but doesn't have the experience/maturity to realize that those skills cannot be taught to others in such a brief period of time.

OTH, Grey Knob is a substantial destination by itself as a first exposure - maybe they'll overnight there, set Adams 4 as a goal, and have an great adventure.

Sharing your concerns with her is about all you can do. If you're too heavy-handed, you'll risk alienating her. But, stick to your guns - nuts is nuts.

IMHO, I really recommend a few winter day hikes prior to an overnight to make sure what gear she can assemble is going to be adequate and if she truly is going to like winter hiking (some dont). There is a lot to be said for booking a room nearby, or possibly staying at Pinkham or Shapleigh and doing a couple of days of day hikes. Adding in having to haul up a pack with adequate overnight gear for a first time winter hike adds a lots of additional work and the potential for having a bad first experience is higher.

By the way, remind your friends mentor that its first come first served at Gray Knob, on busy weekends with reasonable weather there is no guarantee that there will be room and therefore they may get to stay at Crag Camp, a real nice place but with no insulation and no stove so they would need much lower rated sleeping gear.

Your concern is rightly justified. I think the importance of just not trying to get any higher or turning around if the weather is bad once they try should be emphasized to both of them.

You should emphasize to them to look upon this adventure just as an overnight to Gray Knob and take it from there. It's a great winter destination on it's own and they should have fun. I was there once when the weather was bad so we decided to stay low and take an easy snowshoe to the The Perch just to get out and experience the conditions.

Aren't there maybe some baby steps that could be taken first?

Seems to me the issue in the northern Pressies is the possibility of long slides & falls. There are lots of good winter trails that don't have such exposure, but many of the approaches to the northern peaks have extensive snowfields and drop-offs that must add up to real mountaineering. Despite having a dozen or so winter peaks behind me, I'm waiting until I have ice-ax competence before testing myself on the summit cones of Jefferson or Adams or the headwall of Tuckerman's or Lion Head. The skier in me just goes, but the hiker advises caution. Isn't ice-ax proficiency a pre-requisite for northern summits? I'm thinking of the slopes above King Ravine or Israel Ridge here.

How about Pierce? Osceolas? Hancocks, Kinsmans, Cannon, Zeacliff, Willey, there are lots of intermediate steps! I was astounded at how awesome the Carrigain fire tower is in the winter wonderland; suggest alternatives! Big difference between a ski pole and an ice ax.

I'm sure they'll have fun,

--Mike.

Hi Seema, nothing new to add from the others, just a few quick questions; is this other friend male or female? Do they have a set itinerary, or are they just winging it? It is one thing to say, let’s head to Washington, it is quite another to get there, and once you do, now what? You cannot knock on the door and ask for a room. Does the person with the experience have Northern Presi experience, or just winter experience? If you remember, we stayed at Grey Knob and never made it to Adams because of the wind; it took me two more times before I finally got Adams in winter, so the ridge is not something to take lightly. Let’s say they do make it to the ridge and start heading to Jefferson or Washington and the weather changes, do they have an escape route?

It is a hard balancing act, you don’t want to turn her off to winter hiking, but by the same token, you want her safe. Do you know her friend well enough to have a little chat with him/her? Sounds like the friend might need a little dose of reality.

Also, if this trip does happen, and she needs additional gear, let me know.

audrey said:

Perhaps your friend can compile a list of gear that her "guide" is recommending.

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I like your suggestion, Audrey. You might also pass on the link to Chavin Guide's winter Presi Traverse primer to get a sense of what equipement will be appropriate:
http://www.chauvinguides.com/presitraverse/presiguide.htm

Remember, your friend doesn't have to have the latest & greatest gear. Non-cotton long underwear, a wool sweater, wool or fleece pants (i.e. army surplus), some sort of shell jacket & pants (her summer rain gear?), a down or synthetic parka, a hat, and good mittens are the basics for clothing. If your friend doesn't already have most of those items, they should be relatively easy to borrow or buy.

Finding good boots will likely be the hardest part. The other expensive items, if she can't borrow them would be crampons, piolet, and snowshoes. IME used to sell used crampons. Outdoor Gear Exchange (gearx.com) has some used pairs.

Assuming this experienced winter hiker friend isn't Haasian in nature, doing Adams, Madison, or Jefferson, with two nights at Gray Knob sounds pretty reasonable to me. The main routes are all non-technical. My secondary school's outing club did a winter ascent of Washington every year, with the one caveat that you had to have done one previous winter hike (not necessarily that same year). My first 4,000'ers were Pierce and Washington in January & February. The hardest part of a Northern Presis hike will probably be the ice flow on Lowes Path, assuming they take that route.

[Forgive me for stating the obvious.]

Thanks guys for the input. I feel a little better having others reinforce my concerns. She came to me initially asking if Brian and I wanted to join in on the trip but since they are heading up mid week and I have this awful thing called "work", I had to decline the invite. BTW, I am not sure why it matters but her friend is male.

With subsequent emails it became clear that she was hoping to borrow some gear. I asked her what gear she needed since I have lots of extras and her response was "whatever you think i need beyond what I used on my AT thruhike", which was my first red flag. Her gear on the AT was even more "lightweight" than mine. She was on the border between light and ultralight. She basically has no real winter gear other than synthetic layers and needs everything from boots to crampons to proper outerwear.

In response, I sent her a list of my usual winter overnight gear list and the first of my concerned questions about where they would be hiking "in the Whites", since hiking "in the Whites" can mean a lot of different things and the gear and level of risk can vary from mild to scary.

Since she basically needs to borrow or buy most of the needed gear, I am lending her snowshoes, gaiters, water bottle insulator, heavy mittens and a few other things but I have a few winter trips planned myself and cannot lend her my winter gear of which I have no duplicates like crampons, ice axe, etc. In addition, her boots have mesh and are summer boots. If she fits my double plastics, she will borrow those (I have winter leathers I can wear) but there is no guarantee that she will fit my boots.

Also, since she had no gear list and no idea what so ever where they would be hiking. I pushed her to please find out for me. I told her that knowing where they would be hiking will allow me to better advice her on gear and that it would ease my mind a little.

She said "after some prodding" she got their "dream/tentative plan" but that her friend was a little annoyed that she was "worrying". I don't want to get into the details in case her friend reads VFTT but she was left feeling that asking for the plans caused some dissatisfaction on his part. Knowing what the plan was did little to ease my mind and rather made me even more anxious. Her friend did say " I want you to see the high-country in the dead of Winter, but I don't care enough to jeopardize your safety or mine, how is that not obvious?" So, I am hoping he won't risk her safety. I don't know him very well. I have met him once at Traildays and kept up with his PCT thruhike. He is a very accomplished hiker and he does care about her so I am hopeful that my worrying is without reason.

I can tell from his description of their plan that he is VERY well experienced with the Whites and he has thruhiked both the AT and the PCT and she has thruhiked the AT, so they are both VERY experienced hikers and I believe he has extensive experience in winter hiking in the Whites and he has the proper gear for himself. I just worry about a first time winter hiker being in the Northern Presidentials without the right gear. I can't post publically the details but his take on this trip and what he wants it to be for her and his lack of concerns is very poetic and hip and cool and in comparison my worry seems very "mother hen-ish". I can't describe it any better but I am feeling anxious and can't help that.

I try to make my emails balanced with positive encouraging info and descriptions while still trying to get her to make sure she gets fully equipped and stays safe. If the weather cooperates all this will be moot.

Thanks for the input, it helps. BTW, MadRiver, I am not sure all your questions were addressed in my rambling above so if you have read to this point here are the answers:

is this other friend male or female?
Male.

Do they have a set itinerary, or are they just winging it?
They will go to Gray Knob and decide what to do from there (I am guessing based on weather on the mountain)

Does the person with the experience have Northern Presi experience, or just winter experience?
I believe he has Northern Presi experience but cannot say for sure. his description of Gray Knob makes me believe he has been there before.

Let’s say they do make it to the ridge and start heading to Jefferson or Washington and the weather changes, do they have an escape route?
I don't know. Just getting their plan was hard enough for her, I think.

Anyway, sorry for the insanely long post.


sli74

sli74 said:

She said "after some prodding" she got their "dream/tentative plan" but that her friend was a little annoyed that she was "worrying". I don't want to get into the details in case her friend reads VFTT but she was left feeling that asking for the plans caused some dissatisfaction on his part.

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While I think that there's no reason why this can't be a great introductory hike, the above is odd and slightly disconcerting. Any trip leader should both be prepared and eager to share the planned itinerary and any possible variations with his or her trip partners. Likewise, your friend should be comfortable with asking any questions and expect to receive willing answers.

TEO said:

Assuming this experience winter hiker friend isn't Haasian in nature...

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Noun
haasia
A wooden frame for drying hay, a hay rack.

I guess that wood make it more difficult...

As far as the OP (good to hear from you, Seema) is concerned; the assumption is the non-winter hiker won't mind the cold, I guess. Many hate the cold. I'd cherry pick a couple cold, windy day hikes first, I think.

I'll never go back above tree-line in the winter without a good GPS in use. Even though it's not fool-proof, I think it's essential winter equipment.

peakbagger said:

IMHO, I really recommend a few winter day hikes prior to an overnight to make sure what gear she can assemble is going to be adequate and if she truly is going to like winter hiking (some dont).

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Agreed--there is a lot more to winter hiking than just 3-season plus snowshoes, crampons, ice axes, and lower thermometer readings. One also needs time to learn how one's own body responds in the cold. And the Northern Pressies might be a bit ambitious for a first trip...

Not all experienced winter hikers are good instructors.

Attending a winter school would be helpful. The following write-up might also help: http://www.winterschool.org/WMS Student Handbook.pdf.

Another approach would be to hire a guide for the trip.

Some of the special gear can be rented.

FWIW, on my first weekend of (my college) winter school (after instruction during the week), I did two below-timberline day trips. The second weekend, I went on a Mt Adams backpack (tenting near the Perch) led by two very experienced leaders. On the first evening, we had to rescue another party (led by an experienced winter hiker...) that was trying to overnight at Gray Knob... We summitted in the fog and got back to the cars well after dark.

IMO, talking to your friend would be appropriate. While the above instruction manual may be a bit over the top in some ways, it would give her some idea of what is involved.

Doug

It's nice to hear from you again.
Yes you are being a "Mother Hen" and it's good that you are. It sounds like someone should be.
You have a pretty good head on your shoulders and more than a little experience; I would take your advice. I think that that's a pretty tall order for a first time out. Suggest something a little more sane, those mountains aren't going anywhere. Think of how many folks never get into hiking and camping because of a bad first experience.

Well, that's just the opinion of a stuffy old guy so take it for what it's worth.
Bob

Having said all that I have said in previous posts, I also feel a little hypocritical in this situation because as a novice winter backpacker, my first few winter backpacking trips were solo in the ADKs. I was very well equipped by researching gear and winter hiking advice on VFTT but I was probably still out of my safety zone. Also, in my early winter hiking days, I also went to Nauman tentsite in below zero temps and fell into a spruce trap (I was solo again) and so I feel like I am worrying about her while I have done some risky things myself (usually not above treeline).

I want her to see the Whites in winter. I love that her friend is taking her to see the beauty and be amazed. I want her to love it and return again and again. Wish she were better equipped.

Anyway, I will try and get her as properly geared up as possible and try not to worry too much. This worrying has been a getting worse as I get older

sli74 said:

Having said all that I have said in previous posts, I also feel a little hypocritical in this situation because as a novice winter backpacker, my first few winter backpacking trips were solo in the ADKs. I was very well equipped by researching gear and winter hiking advice on VFTT but I was probably still out of my safety zone. Also, in my early winter hiking days, I also went to Nauman tentsite in below zero temps and fell into a spruce trap (I was solo again) and so I feel like I am worrying about her while I have done some risky things myself (usually not above treeline).

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I'm glad you wrote this.

You're sweet to worry about her. The proper gear thing is worrisome, but if she does end up well equipped (assuming she knows how to use the gear), and if she is with someone else, and - most importantly -- if she has no qualms about turning back the second she feels out of her element, then I wouldn't worry too much.

If she and her friend are the types that MUST get up there, no matter what....then I'd worry...a lot (however, I worry about those types whether they have tons of experience or no experience whatsoever...it's just a bad attitude to have).

To keep it simple and for YOU to not just sound like a "mother hen" you should email a link to this thread.

ColdRiverRun said:

To keep it simple and for YOU to not just sound like a "mother hen" you should email a link to this thread.

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Oh gosh no . . . she would be mortified that I was talking about her online with people she doesn't know.

sli74 said:

Oh gosh no . . . she would be mortified that I was talking about her online with people she doesn't know.

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change your avatar and say it wasn't you! Wow, what a cowinkydink I just came upon this online discussion talking about nearly the same idea. What? No, it must be some other Seema they are talking about, golly what a small world!

ColdRiverRun said:

change your avatar and say it wasn't you! Wow, what a cowinkydink I just came upon this online discussion talking about nearly the same idea. What? No, it must be some other Seema they are talking about, golly what a small world!

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Hahaha

TrishandAlex said:

If she and her friend are the types that MUST get up there, no matter what....then I'd worry...a lot (however, I worry about those types whether they have tons of experience or no experience whatsoever...it's just a bad attitude to have).

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At the risk of having to forfeit my male membership card, this is why I asked if her friend was male or female. Males tend to have this attitude more than females, or at least the ones I have met. Flame suit on!