Drawing the line between hiker and climber

JakeD said:

I think if you pack your bag and say "i'm going climbing" you will know if you are going climbing or not I know when I go hiking, my climbing gear in it's entirety stays home.

climbing gear
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Socjake/IMG_0192.jpg

hiking gear
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Socjake/Hiking/IMG_0278.jpg

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'nuf said. Well put.

This Car Hiked Mount Washington.
Jeez, I can see it now...

JakeD said:

... the autoroad is for the lazy and obese.

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One of 500 annual lazy and obese autoroad users

Tim

Billy said:

This blowhard I went to college with happened to play
on the college baseball team. For some reason he thought
that was significant. He had a bumper-sticker on his car
that said:

SOFTBALL IS FOR EVERYONE
BASEBALL IS FOR ATHLETES

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Ernest H. has got this one covered:

"Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games" - Ernest Hemingway

Billy said:

This blowhard I went to college with happened to play
on the college baseball team. For some reason he thought
that was significant. He had a bumper-sticker on his car
that said:

SOFTBALL IS FOR EVERYONE
BASEBALL IS FOR AHTLETES

The fact that this a-hole couldn't go from first to third
without requiring CPR is beside the point. The arrogant
tone of the bumper sticker (misplaced arrogance at that!)
is what made us all role our eyes.

This thread, which started out fine, is starting to drift
in that all too predictable direction.

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Agreed. I just wish I hadn't spent 10 minutes of my life reading select opinions by those that deem people driving to the top as 'lazy and obese'. I agree wholeheartedly with not being a fan of the stickers but frankly who gives a s*&^, it's a good marketing ploy. I'd like to think that when I get old enough and I'm unable to make the hike up I can still get a taste of the presis via driving up, is that a sin and driving on skyline drive not?? Thank goodness we have someone who's very actively working on the 48 4,000 footers to keep us in check. Damn.
Pat

Hike your own hike! Climb your own climb and define your own climb! Mountaineer your own mountain folks! Definitely would have to say some folks have found themselves on the wrong planet and they believe they are a higher species! Beam them up Scottie!

JakeD said:

People should be too embarrassed to put the stickers on their car regardless of what it says... seeing people sit in line to drive to the top and wander around in sandals is one of the most pathetic things i've seen. The Cog railway has history.. but the autoroad is for the lazy and obese.

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And disabled, or possibly for those who like the mountains, but aren't able to experience them first hand. Could be laziness. Could be obesity. Could be disability. Could just be that they can't hike much anymore, or ever, but still like to see some views.

There's people who consider the use of trails for wussies. There's people who mock the little hills we call mountains.

Glass houses...

peakbagger said:

I dont think there is a right or a wrong on this but would be curious on other folks opinion.

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If you get bored and curious, you might google around to see if you can find a copy of Harvey Sack's paper, "Hotrodder: A Revolutionary Category". In it, he discusses issues related to the differences in how insiders and outsiders of a group use language and terms related to the group. He looked at kids who called themselves Hotrodders, but it all applies equally to climbers, hikers and skiers. Fair warning, his writing is thick and I could only makes sense of it by talking with sociologists. This advice is roughly as dangerous as dropping somebody off at Pinkham. Or the Appalachia parking lot, in this case.

Mis-quoting Sacks and Garfinkel, it's not what the words mean. What matters is the social work that is being done when they are uttered.

dave.m said:

... What matters is the social work that is being done when they are uttered.

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Dave - I was with you right up until this last sentence. Could you elaborate on this a bit? Do you mean what matters is the social interaction which occurs between us as a result of participating in this thread? To me, the term "social work" implies a specific type of relationship is which one is actively trying to assist the other.

Kevin, you are heading in the direction, at least according to my non-sociologist understanding of it.

Sacks and several others are credited at founding a way of studying and understanding communication called "conversation analysis". Deeply, it asserts that conversation is one of the methods through which we do the social work of defining ourselves and helping others define themselves. I think it was Garfinkel who said something like, selfhood is a social achievement. One of the interesting words that comes up in their writing a lot is "peformative". Another is "constituative" - actions through which social meaning is constituted.

Status relative to a group as outsider, insider and core expert is one of the things that are performative. Our status is always at risk and always tested and always needs to be reaffirmed by our ability to display competence. Otherwise, we break the trust of expectation for our role as husbands, fathers, workers, climbers, skiers. In the end, we develop snarky bumperstickers about sports, or slightly more polite variants, hence this thread.

Here's a quick example. A conversation between Steve and Dave at a dinner party...

Steve: Hey Dave. Glad to see you here. How did you get here tonight?

Dave: Car.

Steve: Yah? Could I get a ride home with you?

Dave: Um, I came in a cab.

If we communicated via agreed upon semantics, Dave's second response should come as no surprise. Cabs are cars. But obviously, something went wrong here. The CA explanation goes like this. Steve's first question wasn't a direct question. It's called a "pre-question". The social work done by that move is to alert Dave that a more intrusive request is about to made. Sort of like, "What are you doing Friday night?" The social work done by a pre-question is to allow the other person to gracefully decline or avoid the intrusive request in a manner than maintains the relationship. In this light, Dave's first response isn't a simple semantically correct answer. It's an invitation to Steve to go ahead and ask the question that Dave (who should be competent) can guess is about to come.

Sorry to prattle on like this. Point being is that we're sorting ourselves out into groups in this thread. Pretty unavoidable. Better to go for a hike. Or climb. Or walk. Or ride. Or ski. Or whatever...

JakeD said:

People should be too embarrassed to put the stickers on their car regardless of what it says... seeing people sit in line to drive to the top and wander around in sandals is one of the most pathetic things i've seen. The Cog railway has history.. but the autoroad is for the lazy and obese.

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My parents drove to the top of Washington just a few years before mom died. She was neither lazy, nor obese, but was suffering from Parkinson's disease, and couldn't have possibly climbed (oops! --hiked) to the top. She spoke of that day often, with great joy, in her remaining years with us. Driving the auto road isn't my cup of tea, but for many of those who can't hike to the top, I imagine it can be pretty thrilling.

dave.m said:

Sorry to prattle on like this. Point being is that we're sorting ourselves out into groups in this thread. Pretty unavoidable. Better to go for a hike. Or climb. Or walk. Or ride. Or ski. Or whatever...

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Agreed! Other than the correlations to Insurance why get your panties up between your crack on this one. Although I do find it interesting with all the rehtoric about rating systems that there has been no discussion about personal comfort levels. The rating systems are a good starting point and having a clear understanding of those systems pertinent going forward. Although IMO even more relavant is the proper estrapulation of those systems upon one's own abilities and comfort levels. Therefore I personally find defining the line between hiking and climbing to be rather grey than black and white.

I don't think anyone is saying any of that. My personal opinion is Mt. Washington is a lost cause, so I'd rather see everything concentrated there and keep the rest quiet as possible. For some people, it's there only way to see the beauty of the mountains. It's how they live their lives, going from motel to motel across the country and seeing what America is all about.

I haven't been to the actual summit of Washington in many years, and don't really intend to. That doesn't mean that I will look down on people who go to the State Park and see the sites. Same for any other peak that can be driven to. I don't think mocking people who can't do what you can do is the way to go about it.

The auto road was in place (obviously not called 'auto') before the Cog. Not sure how it correlates.

JakeD said:

you don't find that hundreds of people on the top of Washington to be the biggest eyesore ever? how about a line of dozens of people that drove up waiting in line to take pictures of them next to the summit sign so that a group that walked the whole traverse doesn't even bother. You find it fun to bust your ass hiking the tallest mountain in the area to show up to a parking lot?

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I have met some interesting people up there - people have asked me about my hiking experience, people have asked to take my picture, to to be in a picture with them. They ask: How long? How far? How hard? How many mountains? What is that over there, etc. It gives me an opportunity to share my love of the mountains with a variety of people. Some express an interest in maybe hiking up some day. I've shared a silent nod or a wink with the other hiker(s) who walked up. It's part of the experience of Washington. Go in the winter and you won't find drivers, although you might see the state park or obs people out working with a snowcat.

Plus, being a resident of NH, every one of those people looks like a $ to me

Tim

JakeD said:

but the autoroad is for the lazy and obese.

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Position determines perspective.

Perhaps the auto road is for folks like my Mom who had polio before the vaccine and would love nothing more than to hike/climb/crawl - ascend a mountain trail but with the withered musculature as a result of polio has no other option (the Cog is too stiff a ride for her). With the auto road she was able to not only get to the top of Mt. Washington but gain an appreciation (albeit "altered" or "limited") of why I do what I do.

Peace

JakeD said:

you don't find that hundreds of people on the top of Washington to be the biggest eyesore ever? how about a line of dozens of people that drove up waiting in line to take pictures of them next to the summit sign so that a group that walked the whole traverse doesn't even bother. You find it fun to bust your ass hiking the tallest mountain in the area to show up to a parking lot?

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Lighten up Francis.

And no, it doesn't bother me. It's all part of the complex tableaux that is hiking in the White Mountains. Other people enjoying the mountains doesn't spoil my enjoyment.

Looks like you were on top, Jake, for a fabulous day. I surely hope you turned your back on those that didn't meet your standards, and enjoyed your health and rewards for your effort. Otherwise...what in the world were you doing on the top of that peak in foliage season?

JakeD said:

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How awful! Not! Looks like a bunch of people sharing a mountain by whatever method they chose to get there! They are not there to get your blessings, approval or be pigeon-holed by anyones eccentric attitude!

I drove up myself last year inorder to share my daughters finish of the 48. That way I was able to take my wife up there so she could enjoy the event and the mountain despite her physical ailments. My parents drive on my dad's Harley and they have to be a couple of the hardest working most fit seventy somethings I know! Dad's legs are getting shot and mom's sight has depleted enough that long hikes into darkness are out of the question. Though she did Jackson in October with me two days after swimming a mile, kayaking three and hiking three and she is seventy-five! Many elders will ride up and hike down so they can still enjoy the hike. It's about enjoying your own life any way you see fit and often a chance to escape other people's judgement and intimidation because you can judge your own dignity of what you are doing! Next time you watch the sandal crowd try to enjoy it as people watching not find it as something inferior!

By the way, when you hike/climb Sandwich Dome you'll be following the footprints of my seventy-five year old mom and she didn't feel it necessary to announce it to the public when she went cause, hey it ain't no big deal. Most folks use places like that to fill in a day to the Osceolas but good that you are getting out to play in the ice and snow. Should you choose to lighten up you may really learn to like this crowd!;-)

Jake D said
"People should be too embarrassed to put the stickers on their car regardless of what it says... seeing people sit in line to drive to the top and wander around in sandals is one of the most pathetic things i've seen. The Cog railway has history.. but the autoroad is for the lazy and obese."

Actually, the Auto Road is older than the Cog by 8 years. August 8th 1861 vs July 3, 1869, so there is quite enough history to share.

FO Stanley proved the capacity of the earliest Stanley Steamer autos on that road. He actually took his wife along for the ride.

" On Stanley, ON"


There are plenty of folks , spring through fall, who get them selves UP to the top of Mt Washington under their own power, but need other transportation to get down. Incidentally, this includes all the bike riders for both bike races and both practice rides, as well as all the runners who participate in the annual Hillclimb. There would be no MWOBS, the LOC hut would not have been built, perhaps PNVC either. EMS wouldn't be testing and refining cold weather gear at the summit, rescue ops would be severely impacted ( as in too bad soo sad) , internet communications for the entirety of Pinkham Notch would be non-existent, as the OBS sat connection up there is vital, and soon to come online is enhanced cellular communication for all of the Northern Presis, just in case you aren't in line of sight to the Pine Mountain towers...

None of us in the North Country would have had Television or Radio without the Yankee Building and the repeaters, dishes, transmitters, NH State Police would not have secure radio communication for parts of Carroll Cty and most of Coos Cty, no one would remember Marty Engstrom and his weather reports because he'd never have had a place to work.

The US military has staged several test sites on MW, beginning with the US Army Signal Corps Circa 1930's, jet engine testing late and post WW2, and ongoing US Government " stuff" that happens periodically, right into the present day. Sign 'em in, sign 'em out, don't ask questions because there are no answers.

10th Mountain Division..... didn't mean to forget them, shame on me.

Brad Washburn's meticulous photographing mapping and ongoing ( current) geological investigations using Brad's work...... by Brian Fowler.

Academic studies of alpine vegetation, entomology, rare birds ( Bicknell's Thrush)

Access for trail maintainers, huge fun and great Spring skiing parties...... ( and those folks who ski the East Snowfields, Air force and some other memorable routes are neither lazy nor obese I will say, regardless of what is in their coolers or on their grills ).

Hey, some folks hate the Cog, some folks hate the Auto Road, some folks decry both of them. Truth is, all those horses left the barn around 150 years ago, and their intention was to get to the top, too.


Breeze

I personally won't ride the Cog becase we were good friends with a couple riding it when it fell down the mountain and witnessed what it did to that couple emotionally and physically! Maybe its in better shape but not my choice of a "controlled way".

Many folks fit right in here without having hiked a dozen summits! Its how you choose to be accepting of a community that may make it difficult, but that of course is a personal choice!;-)