Did you ever feel like you had to say "SOMETHING"?

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skiguy

skiguy

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I was out hiking this past week when the above treeline conditions were to put it mildly...."Marginal". It was one of those times when being correctly equipped was mandatory for survival. Maybe some folks can bear the elements more than I can but I always try to be prepared for the worst based on the weather and trail conditions. Upon meeting people sometimes when I feel they are not well equiped and obviously headed into an area where there is potential for disaster I try to be highly suggestive without being overbearing that maybe they should turn around.
I usually find most of these situations to be specific to the moment at hand, but where do you all feel that a given indvidual's responsibilty lies when the unprepared persist to be ignorant of their situation?
 
I think of one time when I was in a reverse situation. Several years ago, while doing our spring blowdown sweep on Dix, we were returning and had to re-cross the Bouquet. Where others walked around looking for a place to cross, I simply took off my shoes and walked across.

When I got to the other side, it felt good walking on the cool snow, so I continued walking barefoot. We passed a group of scouts. Their leader was teaching them things, and according to my son (who was ahead of me) he started to talk about "The importance of good footware", when I walked by barefoot in the snow. (Timmus... was that the day you first met me?)

Should he have told me that it wasn't a good idea to hike without shoes.

I will never tell someone what they should or should not do. If I think something isn't right, I would say something like, "Gee! You're good. I could never make that hike with only a cup of water and no food." "Wow! You don'T get cold up there? I need real warm stuff."

By putting it on yourself, you give them the message, but you are not preaching or condescending.
 
Pete_Hickey said:
If I think something isn't right, I would say something like, "Gee! You're good. I could never make that hike with only a cup of water and no food."

By putting it on yourself, you give them the message, but you are not preaching or condescending.
Click to expand...
I had a former boss (and an excellent one at that) who sometimes applied a similar concept which he called "The Fictitious Former Self". Invent a simple story such as: "I attempted this trail a few years back wearing flip-flops similar to yours and had to turn back." It does seem to go better. Particularly when talking to your own kids. (I don't think it would go over too well if I had to tell them I was wearing red stilletto heals :rolleyes: )
 
It can be a fine line. Let's say, for example, you bump into Ed Vestures along Alpine Garden in August with a storm coming in. He's in NH for a wedding, and he's carrying a water bottle and wearing sneakers. Would you say something?

I've dropped the subtle hint "Windy up there", or "Real slick conditions", "It's a mess up there, I just got down and it was really cold and I had to put all my layers on"etc. But, I guarantee half the people I see think I have too much stuff, and the other half think I have too little.

I don't do more than that, however....
 
Pete_Hickey said:
I will never tell someone what they should or should not do. If I think something isn't right, I would say something like, "Gee! You're good. I could never make that hike with only a cup of water and no food." "Wow! You don'T get cold up there? I need real warm stuff."

By putting it on yourself, you give them the message, but you are not preaching or condescending.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I met in my original post when I said being highly suggestive without being overbearing. I think what I am trying to drive at more here with this thread is where do indviduals feel where their responsibility begins and ends. I know we have many EMT's and SAR's here on this board who have the skills and are very giving and are able to do so selflessly. I guess without trying to sound callus where does the regular guy that has basic skills get on and off. It just seems that people are so clueless more and more all the time. Again I know that things can be very specific to a given time;but when someone obviously is headed into a real bad situation and keeps going and your headed the other way to get your own but out..what do you do?
 
I agree, people are more receptive to listening to just about anything when they don't feel like they are being put on the defensive. I have on occaision said things like, "Wow, its really slippery up there, I almost fell coming down!" when I've seen someone heading up an ascent with improper gear (heading up Lafayette comes to mind) -- gentle reminders I feel can go a long way, because they feel like helpful information to the listener. And even if the person doesn't chose to listen, they probably won't get offended by a comment directed that way. It just sort of makes the person aware of what lies ahead, and they can reaccess thier own situation if they chose.

Someone who lectures and offers totally unsolicited advice often comes off sounding like a control freak, and lets face it, most of us go into the woods to exercise our personal freedom, among other things.
 
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skiguy said:
...where do you all feel that a given indvidual's responsibilty lies when the unprepared persist to be ignorant of their situation?
Click to expand...

Depends on the level of endangerment. If the probable result of doing/saying nothing is only that Mr Unprepared Ignorant will learn a lesson and come to no serious harm, I'd let him learn. On the other hand, if saying nothing means he'll, or a child, will end up in serious trouble/danger than I think it's our obligation to be helpful and informative.

Now for some real fun let's discuss what to do if the person heading into certain danger, leading his child by the hand, refuses your offer of help...
 
TJ aka Teej said:
. On the other hand, if saying nothing means he'll, or a child, will end up in serious trouble/danger than I think it's our obligation to be helpful and informative.

QUOTE]

Good point! I once gave an ADK High Peaks Map ( a highly cherished one with sentimental value) to a Canadian who was about to head out to Algonquin with a baby in a backpack -- I saw him in the info center inquiring about the prices of maps, and then declined to buy one. I waited until he came outside, and discretely handed him mine, smiled, and walked away. I felt it was important he have a map, since he had a child with him, but I may have done it anyway if in the same situation again. I hope my map found a good home.
Click to expand...
 
DougPaul said:
Seems to me, we had a thread on this topic a while ago...

Couldn't find it in a search.

http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15868 touches on the issue, but isn't the one I am thinking of.

Doug
Click to expand...
You're right. Maybe a search under user Neil with Haystack as a key word will yield the result.

I pretty well never say anything but I did in that instance and one other on a wicked cold and windy day last Feb. 2 guys with fanny packs and not much in the way of insulation and no snowshoes (crampons) were nearing Lake Tear at 2:30 in the afternoon. There were about to go up and over Marcy. We didn't say, "Don't do it" It was more like, "Are you sure? Do you know how cold it's going to be up there?"

If I saw a person walking in the snow in bare feet in the Dacks I'd make sure they knew about the 8" snowshoe law.
 
The only time I let someone have it was a church group straggling up to Greenleaf hut in heavy rain. The halt and the lame were at least an hour behind the leaders, in soaked sweatshirts, shivering. One kid was described by his companion as having muscular dystrophy. When we got to the hut, the rest of the kids were sitting sadly with woolen blankets around them, while the leaders had headed up to the summit. When they got back I tried to be sort of diplomatic. They looked right through me..."These kids have hiked before," they said. :mad:

Pete, the first time I met you, you were barefoot in an icy Moosilauke parking lot. Must be a good way to win friends and influence people, it seems to have worked for you. :)
 
Hundred hikers

I was up on Franconia Ridge today approaching Lincoln SoBound when up the trail came a group of, I kid you not, close to a hundred teenagers and adult chaperones with walkie talkies. I asked the lead adult if they knew about the recommended 10 person group size and got the following response: "we asked the ranger and he said it was OK" and kept moving up the trail ahead of this massive line of humanity several of whom were off the trail walking along in the greenery. Needless to say, I was a bit torqued off. I asked a kid down the line where they were from, and he said that the group was on a catholic retreat staying at Plymouth State. All I could do was fume........
 
I'm in the self-effacing camp, mostly

Yeah, there have been a few times when I felt like I had to say something, but I try to stick to the "Wow, I remember the time I was up here in shorts and sneakers last summer... I was just about blue by the time I got down!" line.

Most of the time, people engage and take it for what it's worth or even seem to appreciate it. A few, it just rolls off their (weather-impervious) backs, and you hope you don't read about them later.

Once a couple of decades back, I dragged my sister-in-law across the Franconia Ridge (didn't know she was acrophobic) to spend the night at Greenleaf, just in time for a horrific cold-front to blow through bringing some of the most violent thunderstorms I have ever seen (didn't know she was afraid of lightning, either). When the front had past, the temp had dropped about 40 degrees. I am a bit obsessive about preparation, so Keenie (sister-in-law, who later went on to complete her 4000-footers, many solo) and I were warmly dressed and comfy for the walk out. The very nice honeymooning couple sharing our bunk room -- no, I can't imagine what they were thinking, either -- brought only shorts, tee-shirts, and light sweaters. They walked out shivering and wearing a couple extra layers I had in my pack, and my spare socks for mittens.
 
good point DK-

it's not WHAT you say, it's HOW you say it...
 
A "situation" developed on MTW late Monday afternoon. (Not to anyone's surprise given the weather!)

A group of +/- 30 kids of varying ages 10- late teens had summited about 5 pm in a hailstorm, ( 36 degrees, winds 54+) waited out the blow in the State parks building, and expressed their plan to descend by walking down the Auto Road ( 8 miles) to their yellow bus waiting at the Great Glen base. No-one contacted State Parks, nor did anyone contact Summit Stage for drive-down information.

They had a little reprieve after the first storm and were able to get themselves down below tree line by 7 pm. Another wave ripped through with more torrential, wind -driven mixed precip at that point.

Road Patrol was doing Sweep at the time, and there was a general Auto Road/ Great Glen Trails employee meeting in progress at the base. The meeting was interrupted briefly by the pounding of precip on the Red Barn roof, and almost immediately by a call for another volunteer stage driver to assist in getting them all down the last 4 miles, quickly. The bail out didn't take more than half an hour, but it had to be done

Obviously, a lot went wrong before it was made to be OK, but there had to be a serious intervention in abysmal hiking conditions to get them all down safely.

Pretty simply put, this group of 30 at that age range had zero business attempting MW on that day, they should have known that and executed Plan B.

I don't have any questions, the weather information for that group was just as out there for them as it was for any other thinking person.

It is summer, this will keep happening.

Breeze
 
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