Lost hikers on Franconia Ridge

Insurance - no thank you...

this country is insuranced to death - and then everytime a "rescue" happens - the rates go up..so companies or the gov can make some cash on it - i don't think so...

This could also lead to he thinking - oh well, I paid my "fee" - someone will come get me if i bite off more than I can chew.... and why should the majority of people have to cough up yet another fee? Just like higher rates for young drives, male drivers, etc.. - I don't agree with punishing people before they do anything wrong.

No thank you - there is nothing wrong with the process/situation now.

I already pay the government 4 bucks to drive on a highway (that is supposed to be covered by gas tax, federal highway finds, etc..) and then I cough up 25 bucks for the trail parking pass to go hike in the woods that is a national forest which taxes already are supposed to fund....

get out of my pocket....

chomp said:

I don't have any hard evidence to support my opinion - neither do you. I never said I was certain; I said that I didn't believe it would have helped and that this was an unfortunate accident. And, oh, by the way, there is a warning sign in this trailhead, and I provided a photo of that sign.

To recap - my opinion is that more signs would make things worse. Yours is that more signs would make things better. We are both interested in seeing less accidents, I just don't agree with you on how to accomplish that.

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The interesting part of this is that there are parts of this that aren’t necessarily intuitive. We have had rural sections of road that we constantly respond to rollovers and other accidents. The problem areas are very well known to the emergency services. In an attempt to remedy these problem areas several things were done. The town increased signage warning that areas were bad. We put rumble strips down the center of the road and third we widened the road. The result: more accidents and more severe accidents at that. The reason: Apparently no one reads or takes serious the signage. And more importantly we (the town) discovered that widening the road generally causes more and worse accidents because there have been studies (I have not verified this, its what I was told) that clearly indicate a relationship between road width and vehicle speed. One of the things we were sure was going to help, widening the road, to give people more room to avoid head on collisions on the narrow road actually made them speed more and made the collisions even worse.

The "fixes" for things like this can be expensive and can even backfire. Education, freely available, offered at the trailheads, and online is probably the most effective and cost effective. The people who will search out the answers are most likely to use the information they have recieved. Those that have the information thrust upon them are probably not as likely to heed it in any event.

FWIW,
Keith

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned sherpas thus far as an alternative to insurance, extra signage and pricey rescues. Although they certainly won't completely eradicate the unpleasant specter of injury or death, they could certainly provide a pleasant experience hiking in the Whites while significantly increasing the average hikers safety. In addition, they would stimulate the local economy because now you'd need trained, not to mention incredibly strong individuals. And before you cry foul decrying the massive increase in erosion due to doubling or trippling the number of people hiking in the Whites (some people would require more than one sherpa, I think), the cost would be prohibitive enough that the average person would think twice before hiking too often.

Or, all of us on VFTT can quit our jobs and become well paid sherpas.

Sarcastically,

-Dr. Wu

dr_wu002 said:

sherpas

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A nit: Sherpas are an ethnic group living primarily in Nepal and Southern Tibet.

Perhaps you mean porters?

If you read the literature of the golden age of mountaineering (1800s, when many of the summits of the European Alps were climbed for the first time), use of paid guides and porters was once common. Many expeditions in the Himalayan mountains still use porters to carry their gear.

Doug

dr_wu002 said:

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned sherpas thus far as an alternative to insurance, extra signage and pricey rescues. Although they certainly won't completely eradicate the unpleasant specter of injury or death, they could certainly provide a pleasant experience hiking in the Whites while significantly increasing the average hikers safety. In addition, they would stimulate the local economy because now you'd need trained, not to mention incredibly strong individuals. And before you cry foul decrying the massive increase in erosion due to doubling or trippling the number of people hiking in the Whites (some people would require more than one sherpa, I think), the cost would be prohibitive enough that the average person would think twice before hiking too often.

Or, all of us on VFTT can quit our jobs and become well paid sherpas.

Sarcastically,
-Dr. Wu

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From a serious side...do you think a Sherpa,Porter or Guide would make one's experience safer in all circumstances. I am asking this as I have experience with Guides and I can tell you for sure it is not always safer. Guess it comes down to another self reliant decision based upon experience...choosing the right Guide IMO.

DougPaul said:

A nit: Sherpas are an ethnic group living primarily in Nepal and Southern Tibet.

Perhaps you mean porters?

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You are correct. My mistake.

skiguy said:

From a serious side...do you think a Sherpa,Porter or Guide would make one's experience safer in all circumstances. I am asking this as I have experience with Guides and I can tell you for sure it is not always safer. Guess it comes down to another self reliant decision based upon experience...choosing the right Guide IMO.

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Theoretically this is a free market so, as a porter, if I were not providing a "safe excursion" people would simply not hire me, no? Let's not mix facts with money now, ok?

Umm, seriously, talking about porters in the Whites (modern day) is really a non sequitur. I can't answer your question.

-Dr. Wu

giggy said:

Insurance - no thank you...

this country is insuranced to death - and then everytime a "rescue" happens - the rates go up..so companies or the gov can make some cash on it - i don't think so...

This could also lead to he thinking - oh well, I paid my "fee" - someone will come get me if i bite off more than I can chew.... and why should the majority of people have to cough up yet another fee? Just like higher rates for young drives, male drivers, etc.. - I don't agree with punishing people before they do anything wrong.

No thank you - there is nothing wrong with the process/situation now.

I already pay the government 4 bucks to drive on a highway (that is supposed to be covered by gas tax, federal highway finds, etc..) and then I cough up 25 bucks for the trail parking pass to go hike in the woods that is a national forest which taxes already are supposed to fund....

get out of my pocket....

Click to expand...

Good points. And, to pile on, let's say you buy the "insurance", and get in over your head because, you know, the helicopter will come get you. You call home "Don't worry honey. I'm in some place called RedRock brook and I have diaper rash. Looks like I won't make it home for the caviar. Call and send the 'copter." Then, when you don't make it back, can your family now sue because you paid for a service that you didn't get?

Insurance Companies!

dug said:

Good points. And, to pile on, let's say you buy the "insurance", and get in over your head because, you know, the helicopter will come get you. You call home "Don't worry honey. I'm in some place called RedRock brook and I have diaper rash. Looks like I won't make it home for the caviar. Call and send the 'copter." Then, when you don't make it back, can your family now sue because you paid for a service that you didn't get?

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I have to say, with all honesty: I would love, and I mean really really love, really really really really love, to see insurance companies invading White Mountain Hiking. They provide such a delightful experience both in the medical, automobile and home-owning industries that their delicate hand would be most welcomed in hiking and recreation as well. I love paperwork and all things bureaucratic not to mention claims and whatnot in my everyday life so naturally having it on the weekends would be an added boon and make me feel "more at home."

Imagine how cute and funny the commercials would be during the Super Bowl!? Reason #876 that I can't wait any longer!

-Dr. Wu

I am out of here and it won't be any loss to some of you I am sure.
Originally, I thought we were having a really serious discussion about how inexperienced hikers could be better educated so as to possibly avert some of the accidents and deaths in the mountains.
Dr D had asked if any of us had ideas to contribute.
Some of us did the best we could to offer suggestions.
Yet the coin had another side.
Somehow, sarcasm, ridicule, and pictures of hikers making a mockery out of warning signs does not really appeal to me when we are trying to find answers to a problem that desperately needs a solution.
IMHO deaths, serious accidents, and discussions on how to possibly avert them are not fodder for jokes.
On that note, out or respect for those who have been injured or died on the mountain I will sign off.

And on that note I'm going to shut this down. There is still one hiker in the hospital and one family grieving. If you'd like to continue this discussion please start another thread for that purpose.

-dave-