5 days? Yeah right!

[dr_wu002]

The point that Ryan207 raises is a legitimate one, in terms of winter hiking ethics and style, regardless of whether or not you agree with it. After all, having the trail broken out for you is performance enhancing.

"Winter Hiking Ethics", serious? There are ethics that Ryan is breaking by having trails broken out for him?

-Dr. Wu

 

[TEO]

"Winter Hiking Ethics", serious? There are ethics that Ryan is breaking by having trails broken out for him?

I believe that that is what Ryan207 felt. When I use the terms ethics & style, I'm borrowing them in the sense that rock climbers use, where for some, how you do a feat or specific route is equally or more important that accomplishing it. Another example of winter ethics would be whether or not it is OK to use a snowmobile on logging road approaches. Ethics & style are a big and inherent part of FKTs. For example, many consider it proper to announce an attempt in advance. Some feel that the clock should stop at the final summit others feel that it should stop when upon the return to a trailhead after the final summit.

To play the Devil's Advocate, let's say that instead of halting his attempt, Farmer had had an advance crew salting the trails* and as a result, had succeeded in his goal, would we have considered that sporting? If not, how could we at the same time condone an advance team firming up the route with snowshoes?

*Salting is a technique used in ski racing to firm up the course, usually in warmer weather. I'm not seriously suggesting that someone would do this, a) it might be considered illegal pollution to salt a hiking trail on public land, b) it would require an immense effort and careful timing.

 

[cooperhill]

Very impressed with the effort and, unlike some on here, think you are showing great respect for the mountains.

 

[dug]

Sadly, because trying to do so much inside a set time, to me at least, it became a competition. And, once you have a competition, you have rules. Silly or unrealstic as it is to set rules in nature.
Now, if you don't care about said rules, that's fine by me. I know I won't be the one breaking this, or really, any speed-hiking records. It's not my game, but the reality is that is because it's unattainable. There's no way in hell I could do what you did, Farmer. As Tim said it earlier, I couldn't do it if they were paved. Shoot, I couldn't do it on a bike, either, but I digress.

So, while the delivery and the ensuing hubbub were so far out of line, I had to keep checking where I was (and why there wasn't a dog involved), I can at least see the point. Once it's become a competition, there are rules that must follow. To me, it's like having a team of bikers in the Tour de France...only one nut gets the trophy, but a whole team of people contributed to that victory.

As for the 'ethics' portion, that's bullsh*t. Where do you stop? Broken trails? Snowshoes? Signs? Trails at all? Green tents?

Farmer, I enjoyed tracking your progress and was amazed at what you were able to do. From what I have heard, you are a stand-up guy and pretty down to earth. Kudos to you. While there was a lot of support helping you, I don't picture an army of thirty plebs, with you in the back being fanned and carried over the open streams. Hyperbole aside, it's those types of trips that I personally do not like. Just my opinion is all.

 

[RollingRock]

[Note: Below is a portion of a post of mine that had been removed, as it addressed the now-removed brouhaha, and was returned to me, at my request, by one of the moderators. After some deliberation, I am re-posting this portion so that it is part of the VFTT record and also because it is referred to in a post that remained a part of the thread. Please note that I am not making a judgment about Farmer's attempt & the associated trail breaking. It's my strong belief that discussing contrary points of view--call it arguing if you'd like--can be both enjoyable, illuminating, and stimulating provided that it is the ideas that are criticized, not the person expressing them.]

The point that Ryan207 raises is a legitimate one, in terms of winter hiking ethics and style, regardless of whether or not you agree with it. After all, having the trail broken out for you is performance enhancing. Does it mean that what Farmer is trying to accomplish is unimpressive? Certainly not, but it is inherently less impressive than if some hiked the same itinerary in a similar time, but had to break a considerably larger amount of trail.

An analogy would be comparing the effort and impressiveness of someone trying to speed hike the ADK 46 prior to the establishment of herd paths versus trying to speed hike the 46 today. Would a current-day attempt be invalid? Not in my view, but it certainly would pale in comparison to an attempt, if there was one, some 50 years ago.

For some, breaking trail is an inherent part of winter hiking. Does this mean that if a trail happens to be broken out, it isn't a true winter hike? Obviously, no. But, over the course of hiking a list or a for a season, one can reasonably expect to encounter unbroken trail, unless you are someone who waits to do a hike until after you know that it has been broken out. I can certainly understand the point of view that considers the latter to be poor style.

Perhaps I don't have the facts, and I can't respond for Ryan, but my general thoughts are that he was not soliciting hikers to go out there and break trail for him. Take me for example. I got caught up in the spirit of what he was trying to do. I'm working on my winter 4,000 footers, looked at his schedule and said to myself, why not choose one that would help Ryan. I think other VFTT members selected certain peaks with the same spirit.

Speed records will stand a better chance to be broken with optimal trail/weather conditions. I agree that one must keep that in perspective. The previous record holder might have encountered tougher trail/weather conditions but it all gets "lost in the translation" because the new record holder was in the end, faster.

My only thought for future attempts is not to post your day-by-day schedule to help dispel these sort of thoughts.

 

[dr_wu002]

The previous record holder might have encountered tougher trail/weather conditions but it all gets "lost in the translation" because the new record holder was in the end, faster.

I think what it comes down to is Ryan should have consulted with the previous record holder about whether or not having trail breakers was ok.

-Dr. Wu

 

[TEO]

Perhaps I don't have the facts, and I can't respond for Ryan, but my general thoughts are that he was not soliciting hikers to go out there and break trail for him. Take me for example. I got caught up in the spirit of what he was trying to do. I'm working on my winter 4,000 footers, looked at his schedule and said to myself, why not choose one that would help Ryan. I think other VFTT members selected certain peaks with the same spirit.

Looking back at the posts to this thread it would appear that friends were recruited to break trails in advance. For one of the peaks, Isolation, he himself broke it out in advance with a friend. But, regard to the unsolicited support that you and other VFTTers gave, let's say Farmer had succeeded and someone else, who is not a member of VFTT, declares that they are going to try to break his mark. Would you and other VFTTers offer the same sort of support to this outsider who is trying to best the mark set by a member of the community? If not, wouldn't that then make the competition not only athletic, but also one based on popularity?

P.s. To those who may misread me, please note that I'm quite impressed with Farmer's athletic accomplishments. Indeed, they are mind-boggling.

 

[dr_wu002]

(Looking back at the posts to this thread it would appear that friends were recruited to break trails in advance. For one of the peaks, Isolation, he himself broke it out in advance with a friend.) Let's say Farmer had succeeded and someone else, who is not a member of VFTT, declares that they are going to try to break his mark. Would you and other VFTTers offer the same sort of support to this outsider who is trying to best the mark set by a member of the community? If not, wouldn't that then make the competition not only athletic, but also one based on popularity?

Sure, why not? Check out Mats Roing's first thread he posted on VFTT: http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=16148

-Dr. Wu

 

[David Metsky]

Moderator Note
Feel free to have a heated discussion about the topic at hand. If you feel like attacking another poster, please choose another message board.

 

[David Metsky]

Would you and other VFTTers offer the same sort of support to this outsider who is trying to best the mark set by a member of the community? If not, wouldn't that then make the competition not only athletic, but also one based on popularity?

And why would any of that matter?

 

[RollingRock]

Looking back at the posts to this thread it would appear that friends were recruited to break trails in advance. For one of the peaks, Isolation, he himself broke it out in advance with a friend. But, regard to the unsolicited support that you and other VFTTers gave, let's say Farmer had succeeded and someone else, who is not a member of VFTT, declares that they are going to try to break his mark. Would you and other VFTTers offer the same sort of support to this outsider who is trying to best the mark set by a member of the community? If not, wouldn't that then make the competition not only athletic, but also one based on popularity?

I can't speak for ALL VFTTers, but I would certainly support and cheer anyone who is trying to do this! The catch is, whether I know about it. But given how members of this forum are great about informing us about these sort of things, I'm sure we would find out.

 

[hikerfast]

i think farmer's attempt rocks! I think he should try to break the record when he wants, how he wants, with whatever support he wants. This is supposed to be FUN!! this guy isn't getting paid for this. lighten up! ITS FUN!!

 

[TEO]

And why would any of that matter?

It depends. Are you a fan of F1 or the NFL? Are you fan of the greatest team in sports--the Yankees--or the Minnesota Twins?



In this case popularity equals resources.

 

[MTNRUNR]

In regards to...

...the previous record holder, as some have mentioned, if I'm not mistaken FARMER is that person!?!?!?

If that is in fact the case...I'm quite sure he let that person know about his attempt.

 

[slevasse]

Would you and other VFTTers offer the same sort of support to this outsider who is trying to best the mark set by a member of the community? If not, wouldn't that then make the competition not only athletic, but also one based on popularity?

Well whether it was a member of the community or not, do you really think that people wouldn't hike the trails since a record was trying to set? What would have happened if he had decided to hike the week before? The trails would have been broken out for quite a while. I really feel the whole trail breaking debate is rather moot. How can you compare the trails from attempt to attempt? Do you think the trails and conditions are ever really going to be the same? It's one of the many reasons I love to hike and climb in the winter. From day to day the trails and climbs can be drastically different, so how can you compare?

 

[adamiata]

Well whether it was a member of the community or not, do you really think that people wouldn't hike the trails since a record was trying to set? What would have happened if he had decided to hike the week before? The trails would have been broken out for quite a while. I really feel the whole trail breaking debate is rather moot. How can you compare the trails from attempt to attempt? Do you think the trails and conditions are ever really going to be the same? It's one of the many reasons I love to hike and climb in the winter. From day to day the trails and climbs can be drastically different, so how can you compare?

This is a very good point. In the end, it's all just hiking and doesn't particularly matter in the grand scheme of things. Farmer running around in the Whites has no effect on anyone else. Nobody is paving the Kinsman Ridge Trail or building another hut in Sphinx Col. Remember style vs. ethics?

When someone comes into what was a fun, happy the thread for the sole purpose of throwing around judgements, they deserve whatever subjective feedback they get.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

What about the "non winter" records? Some times there is more daylight, less mud, easier stream crossings, etc. It's never really the same challenge any two times you try it.

There are lots of unwritten rules, some may say ethics, in many sports. In baseball, you don't bunt to break up the no-hitter. You don't steal a base when you're up by 10 runs, etc. In the Tour de France (or any bike race for that matter), you don't attack the leader if he's flatted, or taking a "nature break", or in the feed zone. If the race goes through your home town, you get "permission" to ride off the front to meet your family with the understanding that you come back to the peleton (maybe with goodies for all if your family owns a bakery!)

I don't think there are any rules, written or otherwise, for what Ryan is / has done. He's been completely transparent which I give him a lot of credit for.

Tim

p.s. I think that if the trails were all paved, I could probably pull off 5 days on a bicycle. There are some really steep sections which simply couldn't be ridden. Cannon would be a problem by any route, for example. The distance and elevation at highway grades is certainly doable.

 

[RoySwkr]

I'm sorry it didn't work out for you. But if winter hiking was always easy or predictable, where would the challenge be?

I'd be interested in your comments about the segments where the SPOT didn't pick up - dead batteries, turned off, or are there places in the Whites it doesn't reach?

 

[una_dogger]

Course if he had asked "please don't hike the trails for five days because I'm working on a record and I want to break out my own trails" there would be the contingent that would still say "who the hell does this guy think he is?".



Just sayin', you can't please everyone, but you can please yourself. Nice going, Ryan -- a good show of sportsmanship from start to finish.

 

[David Metsky]

In this case popularity equals resources.

And again, what does it matter? You can argue about resources, but I don't see where that contributes to the ethics argument. No one said all things have to be equal, nor should they be.

Some events (like most triathlons) have a "no drafting" rule. Others (like the Tour de France) are predicated on drafting. One isn't better or worse, they are merely different. The people setting the rules for this event are the people who are doing it. I can think of no better group of people to do so.