Abandoned Hikers, a new trend?

[Nessmuk]

If I’m with my wife and friends I periodically stop to allow them to catch up. I’m never more than a few minutes ahead at any given time.

One sure way to get a nasty look is to periodically take a break while you wait for your wife to catch up when hiking or skiing. Just as she arrives you take off down the trail again after your short rest. I don't know why she seems so upset with me.

 

[Jay H]

Since MadRiver mentioned my presi hike, I can only say that in the past 2 events that I organized, that we had volunteers at many locations and I gave them all a copy of all the participants names, numbers, cell phone, and emergency contact. For example, last year's Escarpment hike, we had TeeJay and Papabear on one of the trail junctions after Windham HP and Stoppel Point and then we had Miss Margaret and Warren at Dutcher's notch will a full rest stop with food and water. They each had a copy of the participants and would keep track of who is where.

This year is different, I don't know if we're going to have as much rest spots as before because of the hut system where you can get water at least. We might have a some folks with food at say Mt Washington, the logical lunch spot if you don't wish to pack your lunch. But that's yet to be planned.

From *my* experience in running the last two charity hikes and from also hiking it, groups will split up a bit of course, just like any large group will but I haven't seen any problems from those that want to leave early finding others to hike with them. Just be vocal, post it in the thread your interest. Right now, there are already a couple replies in my Presi thread about starting early. Tuco and Giggy have already mentioned plans.

Jay

 

[WildPeaks]

There is always that element of the unknown when you go with a new group.
One of the reasons I prefer to go with a group or individual that I know. But I would not have met a lot of you guys/gals if I didn't venture into that unknown from time to time.
Bill put it well when he said "as far as I know, we are not in a race".
One think I notice is there is that desire to pound down the trail by many, including myself from time to time.
That is in my opinion one of the reasons for this problem. (there are more)

I went with my oldest brother for the first time last Jan. and was very apprehensive because these guys are all marathon runners & the competition amongst them is fierce in whatever they do. (They did the Pres. Traverse in 12.5 hrs.)
So I told him no way can I keep that pace anymore & he said don't worry we've slowed down a lot.
WRONG!
Thing first thing they did was hit the trail at 80mph. (a little less)
And I like a dummy kept up with them.
When they got to the first stop at Hermit Lake Shelters, they ALL had problems. Frozen fingers was the most common.
When you travel at those speeds with very few stops I notice I'm a lot more prone to problems. Hands, Feet, Chills etc.
The next day I grabbed the lead (there's that word again) and slowed them down a bit. Later that night more than one came & thanked me for doing so & how they felt so much better.
I've gone with them a few times since & they all joke about me & my headlamp.
I'm not saying you can't go fast. But if you're leading a group and there is someone new, get in the back from time to time, especially through tough areas & make sure all are ok.
Try it, you may even feel better yourself and I promise you'll get to see more in a day in the Whites!

 

[slowandsteady]

To me, the real issue is knowing what to expect from your hiking companions once you leave the trailhead, and what they can expect from you. Most any set of expectations is fine, so long at its understood and agreed to by all ahead of time, and that all behave the way they promised on the hike itself. MEB raises the real dilemma of what can happen when people don't act as they promised.

Stress the importance of sticking to agreements made before the hike but at the same time allowing for flexibility to change plans based on conditions at hand. I can also relate to WIldpeaks' comments about pace:

A while back (pre cell phones, GPS and many of the regulations now in place at Baxter Park) we hiked a Katahdin traverse (up Hunt to Baxter Peak, knife edge to Pamola and down to Katahdin Stream CG). The weather had been hot and humid, but a change in the weather with possible windy weather was predicted. We agreed to turn around at Baxter Peak if the knife edge was going to be too hairy in the wind. Our group was ten hikers all with similar fitness level. All but two had summited Katahdin prior to this particular trip and were familiar with conditions on the mountain. The night before we met and agreed upon start time, pace, turnaround time and that we would not attempt the knife edge unless all were comfortable with conditions.

Next morning one couple (who stayed at a different campground than the rest of us) arrived about 45 minutes after the agreed upon start time. We had been waiting for them but were just about to begin our hike when they arrived. They announced that we should try to make up the time lost by hiking faster. You guessed it - they were the two who had not climbed Katahdin before. Having built in plenty of contingency the rest of us, annoyed at them for causing the late start to begin with, countered that we did not need to accelerate our pace to finish before dark but we could try to make up some of the time if we could. We thought they were in agreement but it became clear after a while that they were pushing to make up that time. During the water/snack breaks they would look at their watches, pace around and not take anything to drink/eat. Finally they just took off. When we reached the summit they had already started across the knife edge.

The eight of us enjoyed the summit and decided to take the planned route. Although the winds were starting to pick up, we all were comfortable going over the knife edge having completed it before.

Part way across the K.E. we caught up to the couple who had gone ahead. It was clear that they were in trouble - both were dehydrated and showed signs of heat stress. One of them had banged a knee or foot and was clearly in pain. We then waited for them to eat and drink and recover enough to continue (maybe another thirty minutes). At that point heat stress was going to turn into hypothermia as temperatures were dropping (we all wore cotton tee shirts back then). We then proceeded as a group because we just couldn’t leave them there (although we wanted to ). For the rest of the hike the tables were turned and it was the two of them who were setting a pace substantially slower than the rest of us would have liked. Towards the end of the Knife edge one of them was freaking out because the winds were now howling. Ironically we would have been across before the weather conditions changed if we had kept to our original moderate but steady pace. We finished without further incident, by flashlight, but we were all rather “grumpy”.

The next morning they did come by and apologize and we all went out for a second more leisurely day in the woods. But I don’t think any of us has hiked with them since.

 

[MadRiver]

One sure way to get a nasty look is to periodically take a break while you wait for your wife to catch up when hiking or skiing. Just as she arrives you take off down the trail again after your short rest. I don't know why she seems so upset with me.

Yep, sounds about right.

 

[MadRiver]

Here’s a question that I haven’t seen yet. How do you tell someone tactfully/compassionately that the hike you have planned is way beyond their ability, yet they insist on coming?

 

[lumberzac]

Here’s a question that I haven’t seen yet. How do you tell someone tactfully/compassionately that the hike you have planned is way beyond their ability, yet they insist on coming?

When you find out let me know. I've had some luck with showing elevation profiles, but that doesn't work all of the time.

 

[timmus]

Here’s a question that I haven’t seen yet. How do you tell someone tactfully/compassionately that the hike you have planned is way beyond their ability, yet they insist on coming?

Most people understand by simply telling them nicely. The problem is the proud ones, who thinks they can handle anything. I just lie to them by saying that I am not going anymore.

 

[dr_wu002]

My Ankle Herts!!

Most people understand by simply telling them nicely. The problem is the proud ones, who thinks they can handle anything. I just lie to them by saying that I am not going anymore.

That's a page outta my book! Oh No, my ankle herts so bad!!!!!! I can't go!!!!

-Dr. Wu

 

[alpinista]

Here’s a question that I haven’t seen yet. How do you tell someone tactfully/compassionately that the hike you have planned is way beyond their ability, yet they insist on coming?

The only thing you can do is really be honest _ but in a nice way _ with the person, and also be prepared to not complete the hike you've originally envisioned, particularly if it's just the two of you on the hike.

This type of situation seems to happen mostly with people who are new to hiking. When I first started hiking, I likened looking at trail maps to feeling like Paul Bunyan _ as though I could traverse all those ridges and lines in a giant leap. On my second trip in the White Mountains, my boyfriend at the time and I planned a hike up Daniel Webster Scout trail to Mt. Madison. I looked at the map, having previously "conquered" Mt. Washington, and innocently said: Hey, while we're up there tagging Mt. Madison, why don't we do Adams, Jefferson and Washington and then head down? He was nice enough not to laugh in my face or slap me silly.

Well, needless to say ... we hit Madison (barely!), and I was just as happy to get down off that danged mountain rather than continue on.

So ... he didn't need to say anything to me. I learned the lesson by his being willing to show me _ the hard way!

 

[John H Swanson]

Here’s a question that I haven’t seen yet. How do you tell someone tactfully/compassionately that the hike you have planned is way beyond their ability, yet they insist on coming?

You can only tell them so nicely and then if they don't get the message it's time to run their tail into the ground to teach them a lesson so it won't be a problem the next time.

I've seen it done nicely and the words used included ...if it's too difficult for you then you won't be having fun and if everyone is waiting for you they won't be having fun either and the whole reason for going out is for everyone to have fun. This seems to work.

Another effective, but offensive way is to compare the difficulty of a hike to child birth.

 

[Mike P.]

As others have said, it's about setting expectation & communicating. I'll ask for some feed back from people I've hiked with or not hiked with.

Bob K. did you feel abandoned last weekend when I waited at the Lower Cog lot until 8:05 - 8:10? I believe you had planned on getting there around 7:45. If that is wrong I apologize.

Chomp, did you feel we all abandoned you (more than one occasion) when we (or I) started hiking an hour or more before you got to the trailhead?

On a couple of hikes Sherpa K. & I did with Others (the winter gang trip on Moriah comes to mind) did we feel lost & abandoned when the other dozen hikers left you, me & Gary T. in the dust. That is not the subject of conversation I remember

If a group decides to turn back & one hiker decides to continue up, isn't the group abandoning the other hiker? Is being abandoned something that we only think about for slower hikers?

For the upcoming Presi-traverse event, there is no real start time. The slower hikers may start when it's still dark with the hope of catching the sunrise from Madison. If I do that have I abandoned all the late starters? If they pass me, have they abandoned me? What is it I expect from them?

If you are the leader (this is what I think about with AMC Chapter hikes & certainly AMC hikes one pays to attend) & everyone is contacting you to see if it's okay for them to attend your hike then everyone should be between the leader & the sweeper. (If they need a bathroom break, the Sweeper goes ahead a couple of 100 yards & then waits.

If you just post here, I'm heading to ????? want to join me, that duty is less.

When Double Bow & I did the Wildcats last month, we split near the 19 mile & Wildcat Ridge junction. He wanted to visit the hut & since I was the skower hiker, I wanted to plug away climbing A Peak. I knew what to expect at the slide. If it had been treacherous, I was going to wait there. It was not so I waited for him to catch up at A peak. (I was kind of surprised I got there before he caught up)

Double Bow, did you feel abandoned?

 

[the starchild]

Here’s a question that I haven’t seen yet. How do you tell someone tactfully/compassionately that the hike you have planned is way beyond their ability, yet they insist on coming?

as others said, just tell them, i have. being direct and honest is the best policy in my opinion.
"i don't think you are ready for a hike like this."
"you haven't had enough experience yet to safely hike in this weather/terrain"
"you do not have enough experience yet with the equipment needed for this trip"

if they persist and you want to help, offer to do another, smaller trip with that person and help them build up to the level that they need to be to do the larger trip. if that doesn't work......

who cares if they keep insisting, if you bring someone on a hike that you do not feel they are up to, you are already in trouble and risking thier health/life as well as yours and anyone who may need to help later. anyone who would just keep insisting on doing something and nagging you about it obviously has a lack of respect for both you as well as the mountains. i would not want to be in the wilderness with someone like that.

sorry is this is off topic of hiking in "groups" but i feel like it relates to some of the questions and topics of seperating.

i have never hiked in a large group and don't think i'd enjoy it as it would take away some of the reasons i go to the mountains in the first place. After reading this thread i really doubt i will ever hike in a large group with people i do not know. i have hiked in groups of four before where we all knew eachother well and could spread out and seperate and meet again without any formal plans or rules and it always worked out because of our common sense, trust and respect for eachother as well the mountains.

hiking as a party of two with any of my regular hiking partners, me'erah, cigarette break, gepetto we always take turns leading, passing eachother and hiking apart. its understood between all of us that at confusing trail juctions or the start of anything sketchy to wait. its common sense. if someone is injured or uncomfortable you hike together, its common sense.

i suppose if you are hiking in a large group with people of varying experiences, i would agree with what others have said about having firm rules and plans and discussing ettiquette. this carries alot of responsibilities, but i guess if you want to hike in a group with various people, there are things that come along with that.

-william

 

[jbrown]

I agree with everything the starchild said. I've had to tell people they're not ready for certain hikes I've planned or participated in.

On the other hand, this applies too...

You can only tell them so nicely and then if they don't get the message it's time to run their tail into the ground to teach them a lesson so it won't be a problem the next time.

Guilty. A great friend of mine who is not in very good shape at all came on what I would call a "medium difficulty" hike several years ago. He struggled to keep up the entire weekend. Whenever he hears I'm planning a hike, we joke about him coming along again. The rest of us had a good time, but he was just too beat to have fun.

I've ditched my companions on one hike. I had lost my climbing shoes and chalkbag on a hike and got nothing but mocking and jeers from my group. Our route took us around a lake to west, but I had lost my gear to the east when out climbing the previous day. We had been there before, and several of the guys knew the route, had maps and directions, and were capable in my opinion. We started out in the morning with them going the short west trail to the other side of the lake, I took the longer east trail around the lake to look for my gear, never found it, and reached the trail junction before them. I waited for about 10 minutes, then took out my notepad, tacked a note to the trail sign and left. I left several other notes at various trail junctions on the way, and spent the entire day hiking to our next destination by myself. I got to camp with plenty of sunshine left, took a dip in the lake, took a nap, had some food, and eventually welcomed the others into camp.

In retrospect, I was a jerk that day. I let my lack of sleep and anger at losing my gear get the better of me and lost out on hiking with my friends that day as well as helping them deal with the one hiker that was holding everyone up. I've never done that again. If I'm moving faster than the group, I pick one of the guys that is moving the slowest and have him take point. (It's how I hike with my wife too. She complains that she feels like she's slowing me down, and I tell her that I just want to enjoy hiking with her and to just go at her pace.) It makes for happy hiking partners and more enjoyable times in the wild.

 

[LenDawg]

Some people seem to indicate that if you post a hike, you assume responsibility of anyone showing up. I know a lot of people who don't post so that they don't have to feel responsible for anyone hiking with them. Still, I look at hiking as the opportunity to meet new people. Yes, it is about safety and that may be the primary purpose for hiking in groups. But I also hike for social reasons. If I hadn't seen an open post, I wouldn't have had the opportunity to meet so many of you. I like posting hikes so that new people to the site or others I haven't met who are interested in doing that hike, can opt to join me. I have done the same with open hikes posted by others. Still, does that make me responsible for him/her? I agree with one popular sentiment in this thread that communication before hand is important. Any posted hike that I've done, I have either trailed behind as the last person, or have discussed the plan at the trailhead. I think the most important thing is that everyone comes off the hike safely. Still, everyone going into a hike should take responsibility of him/herself.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Here’s a question that I haven’t seen yet. How do you tell someone tactfully/compassionately that the hike you have planned is way beyond their ability, yet they insist on coming?

This can be difficult to do. When I went thru the trip leader training with the NH AMC chapter much time was spent on this topic. There are many techniques to do this in a positive way, but they require lots of practice to do it well. I can tell you from personal experience that it takes a year or two of regular screening practice to feel comfortable/competent in this role.

On a totally different topic - one neat trick to determine how your hiking companions are doing that's rather subtle - watch to see if they're puttering along with their hands on their hips. This doesn't work very well with a big backpack, but on most daytrips and a smaller pack it sometimes works. If you see someone in your group start to do this regularly, slow the hike down a bit, take a longer rest break, and keep an eye out. If you do this without alot of fol-di-rol they'll usually recover and you haven't drawn attention to them.

My thank to Anne Gwynne many years ago for showing me that little trick.

Kevin

 

[C.Tracy]

I was on a group hike once where 2 of the participants requested that the trip leader go at a slower pace to accomodate them. The trip was dangerously slow for this two peak day hike, and we ended up getting caught in a Thunderstorm just below the summit of Saddleback. The trip leader slipped on the wet rock while assisting one of these people over the cliff section, and down he went. It was not a good situation to be in, and fortunately he was not injured bad. I was the sweep, and I stopped when we reached the top to take a few pictures. When I caught up with the trip leader, he had informed me that the others had gone ahead. I stayed with him and another for a while expecting to catch up with the others, but that did not happen. I volunteered to go ahead and try to catch up with the others in an effort to bring us back together as a group. I caught the others, but they had no intentions of stopping. I did not like the situation I was in, and have not felt good about it since. I stayed with these people for the remainder of the trip out. I have done a couple group hikes since like this, but mainly I prefer to hike with a select few that I trust. I believe the people who fled from the trip leader that day where scared and wanted to get out asap because they had lost trust in him. At the beginning of the hike, he was telling the group and others at the trailhead how the hike was not that hard. The trip leader did not explain to the participants his guidelines for his hikes either. I believe who ever leads the hike, has the ultimate responsibility to screen the hikers before they reach the trailhead. This is not only for the safety of the other participants, but there own.I also believe people who volunteer to be trip leaders should honestly ask themselves if they too are capable of leading a party. Honesty is the best policy, if they can't take it than that is Too Bad. Safety First.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

...I also believe people who volunteer to be trip leaders should honestly ask themselves if they too are capable of leading a party. Honesty is the best policy, if they can't take it than that is Too Bad. Safety First.

I agree entirely. And if the trip leading is done under the auspices of a formal group, like the ADK, AMC, etc, there should be a formal mentoring process overseen by the group that not only trains, but requires initial hikes be supervised by experienced trip leaders before group recognition as a trip leader is given. There should also be an ongoing oversight process of peer review.

 

[DougPaul]

If I'm moving faster than the group, I pick one of the guys that is moving the slowest and have him take point.

Another way of handling this situation is to put yourself a short distance in front of the slow hiker, but take your pace from the slow one. It helps if you are close enough to hear the slow hiker's breathing to gauge how hard he is working. (You can also estimate how far you are from the slow hiker just by listening.) I then "calibrate" a max effort level (for the slow hiker) by how it feels to me and avoid exceeding that level. (Also, don't suddenly speed up when you reach the level after a steep climb--the slow hiker may need some recovery before speeding up.)

This trick allows an experienced hiker to set a good pace for a beginner and/or slower hiker. I have also used it to break a beginner's run-and-sag cycle.

Another version of this trick for a large party is for the hiker on point to keep within a certain distance from the person on sweep. The pace for the entire party will then be set by the slowest person (who is likely to be back near the sweep) and it will also keep the party together. In addition, it can keep the slowest hiker from feeling rushed.

Doug

 

[sierra]

I think honesty is very crucial in a mountain enviorment. Ive been asked many times in various ranges in the country by people about conditions and such, obviously thier questions where asked to evaluate wether they should continue. I never hesitate to be brutally honest, about both thier gear and or speed, I would rather hurt someones feelings alittle then lead them into a situation that could lead to bigger problems then damaging thier pride.
I remember a group high on Washington's cone in some pretty bad conditions, they where in summer boots, no crampons, wimpy packs indicating little or no survival gear, but the so called leader was gung hoh and was the one asking me for info, I looked right passed him and addressed the group directly stating" I give you a 1 in 10 chance of living" they all turned around followed by thier fearless leader.
If I was leading a group, personally I would sacrafice any hike to be compasionate to someone having a hard time, I mean its one hike out of many. Maybe Im lucky because I climb so much one hike is 3 days from my next hike but Id give up a summit sit on a rock and teach/educate someone before I left anyone behind just for being slow.