Canon...Problem when i turn off the flash...

[Carmel]

Does anyone know why when i turn off my flash on my Canon PowerShot SD800 IS Digital Elph, the picture is very fuzzy?

This may be common knowledge, but i need to fix it.

Thanks,
Carmel



Example 1: with and without Flash. The only thing i did, was turn off the flash.

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2020460140096278484QhnUlg

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2966082510096278484HIcXiD



Example 2: with and without Flash. Not as drastic.

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2578258550096278484EmGeRV

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2247757260096278484yJObpu

 

[ExploreTheEast]

Depending on how much available light there is, the camera is compensating for the lack of light from the flash, by leaving the shutter open longer. The longer the shutter is open, the more camera "shake" there is, causing the blur.

The SD800 has image stabilization, so make sure that's on when you're in situations where you're not using the flash, and not in direct sunlight. It may actually be on all the time, I'm not sure.

The other thing is that you took the flash-less panda photos while zoomed in as much as you could be. The more the your camera zooms in, the smaller the maximum aperture gets, letting less light in to the sensor, and again, increasing exposure time(the shutter remaining open longer).

If there's one thing i've learned about non-dslr digital cameras, it's this: you HAVE to stay conscious of keeping the camera steady at all times. I usually use a flat surface as a tripod. Carry around a hacky sack that you can use to somewhat level out a non-flat surface. Hope that helps.

Edit: oh, one last thing- with a Canon like that, there is MOST LIKELY somewhere to go to adjust the ISO. Be sure that in lower light conditions, you bump that up to 200 or so. Anything more than that, and it might get a little grainy, but you can experiment until you get a feel for it.

 

[David Metsky]

As EtE said, in low light without flash your camera tries to compensate using the only tools it has; shutter speed, f-stop, and ISO. In low light, it's going to slow down the shutter speed (resulting in blurry shots) and push the ISO higher (resulting in noisier shots). These problems are worse at full zoom since less light is getting through.

The SDxxx series doesn't give you much by way of manual controls. First, switch to P (or M) modes which allow you to set the ISO. Set it at 200 and if that's not enough try 400. You probably won't want to print those shots 8x10 but they can be fine for the web. Image Stabilization is great, but of limited use when your subject is moving. IS allows you to keep the camera steady at a slower shutter speed, but if your subject is moving that means it will be blurry.

So, you've found the limits of the camera. The SD series isn't great at low light shots, especially at full zoom. But in good light it's pretty unbeatable.

-dave-

 

[DougPaul]

ExploreTheEast's explanation is correct for example 1: camera motion while the shutter is open.

In example 1, the camera appears to be handheld. However in example 2 the camera appears to be propped up or on a mini-tripod, so presumably it did not move. However, you moved and the shorter with-flash exposure reduces your motion blur. Note also the bright foreground and how dark you are. The camera reacted to the bright reflection from the foreground by reducing the flash intensity in an attempt to set a proper exposure. Had you been able to put the camera in a place without a close foreground (eg on a tripod), the exposure might have been brighter. You might also have been too far away for the flash.

Ideally, if you know the exposure time, you know how careful to be. (For 35mm cameras, there is a rule-of-thumb that you can hand-hold an exposure of up to 1/focal_length_in_mm seconds. If you can convert your P&S's approximate focal length to the 35mm equivalent, you can apply this rule.) Image stabilization reduces the motion blur to allow somewhat longer exposures (up to 3 stops (8x) on my DSLR).

FWIW, I have found it very hard to hold a small point-and-shoot camera steady, particularly if held at arm's length. It is easier to steady if you use the viewfinder and prop the camera against your face. If you are using hiking poles, you can hold the side of the camera against one vertical pole or hold the handles together (2/3 of a tripod) and prop the camera against the handles. And, of course, if there is a convient fixed object you can prop the camera against it or lean on it.

Doug

 

[Carmel]

good to know. i had more problems at the zoo, because those dumb animals wouldn't stop moving!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i will practice with the ISO controls at the next opportunity...i didn't know there was so much to it!!!!

i thought my shots came out pretty good...considering i am one of the worst photo takers in the world. the only trick i know is "the law of 1/3s" that darren taught me, i think its helped a bit.

i think darren bought me the camara for himself, so when we actually are able to do stuff again together he can use it instead of hauling around ALL his camara gear! little did he know how much i was going to get to use it already! i'm VERY glad i have a camara now!

thanks!

 

[forestgnome]

Agreed with all points made so far. If you don't have a remote shutter switch, I would add that if you use a tripod or if you rest the camera on a hackysack or folded t-shirt, etc., try using the self-timer function, so the act of pushing the shutter button won't shake the camera. I like to use it even for hand-held shots.

Looks like you held the camera high to shoot over the heads of others, which was neccesary in that case. As DP said, I would avoid using the screen to compose your shot. Instead, look through the viewfinder to compose and shoot. Have fun!

Happy Trails

 

[darren]

For the zoo shots, the issue is when you used flash the camera assumes you will get enough light due to the flash and the shutter speed is then set faster so you do not get much camera blur. The image is still dark because the subject was too far from the camera for the flash to be effective. With no flash the camera is trying to expose the picture using available light. In low light it will auto bump uo the ISO ("film speed") and then lengthen the time the shutter is open. If you move the camera while the shutter is open and the picture is being taken, then the picture will be blurry. High ISO gives you grainy crappy looking shots. Unless you are using justa little fill flash lightly get rid of the shadows on someone's face, flash in the outdoors usually results in a fake looking shot. The only way around it is to use a tripod and manually set the ISO to 100 or 200.

What you want to use for the low light twilight shots is exposure compensation. The camera wants to meter a scene and make it look an overall "light grey" that is how it determines the exposure. A twilight scene is more black than grey so you need to tell the camera to compensate for it. Read the manual, you can set the exposure compensation generally from -2 to +2. If there is a lot of black in the shot (trees in the foreground of a night shot) then you would dial the exp comp down to -1.5 or so to keep them black rather than have the camera try to make them grey. Same thing with snow, go to +1.5 or so and keep the snow white instead of letting the camera turn it grey.

That little camera actually does have a surprising amount of manual user controls.

Judging bythe pix, that camera does take awesome daytime pix for a little point and shoot. The skies are all blue and not washed out. It also handled the contrast between the white water falls and the dark rocks really well too.

And no, I didn't buy it for me, I bought it for you because you have been complaining about not having a camera since you broke your old one two years ago.

- d

 

[David Metsky]

That little camera actually does have a surprising amount of manual user controls.

What they don't have is the ability to set shutter speed, aperture, or focus, which can be frustrating when you're used to having those controls. In P mode you can set the ISO, White Balance, and exposure compensation, which allows you to be fairly creative within those bounds.

I often take longer shots by setting the camera on a steady surface and using the self-timer to get rid of any motion from hitting the shutter release. You can get interesting motion images, with the background in sharp focus and the subject blurred in motion.

-dave-

 

[darren]

You can do a lot with exp. comp. and ISO control.

This is one of the shots I was talking about that show the ability to handle a daytime shot:

Nice blue sky and still some detail in the snow. Pretty darn good for a camera that small.

I went over the self-timer with Carm last night on the phone. Ahhhhh sooo much for the little grasshoppa to learn...

Now, will I be leaving my camera gear at home all the time? No way. I just love using my SLR too much.

- d

 

[DougPaul]

What they don't have is the ability to set shutter speed, aperture, or focus, which can be frustrating when you're used to having those controls.

I have a Canon A75 digital P&S which does have shutter speed, aperture, and focus controls and unfortunately, I don't find them to be very usable. The aperture range is only about 3 stops, so you are highly constrained on both it and the usable shutter speed range (for any particular scene). The controls for them are button pressing with feedback only on the display so you cannot use them through the viewfinder. The manual focus is even worse--the image display is not good enough for you to see if the image in focus, so you have to measure the distance and set the focus distance through a menu-driven slider. All of this is a far cry from my good old manual film SLR where everything is easy to adjust (separate knob or ring for each control) with good feedback through the viewfinder.

The "intellegent" auto-focus is also good at choosing the wrong object on which to focus (eg the background rather than the flower or the tree branches in the foreground rather than the loon out on the lake).

Basically, I just use the auto-focus (set to center-only) and auto-exposure with exposure compensation if needed. It usually works well enough, but still makes a lot more errors than I did with the manual SLR.

My DSLR (Canon Digital Rebel XT) pretty much gives me the best of both worlds, if I am willing to carry the weight and size. Its manual controls (for shutter speed, aperture, and focus) are not quite as good as the ones on my manual film SLR, but they are good enough to be very usable when needed.

Doug

 

[darren]

I originally didn't post to this thread because the thread is off topic to the forus. I was trying to figure out how to break it to Carmel that I had to delete her thread.

BUT...

I've been thinking it for a while....maybe we need a Nature Photography forum added to the site. It would be member based like the paddle forum. Anyone interested?

- darren

 

[Papa Bear]

I originally didn't post to this thread because the thread is off topic to the forus. I was trying to figure out how to break it to Carmel that I had to delete her thread.

BUT...

I've been thinking it for a while....maybe we need a Nature Photography forum added to the site. It would be member based like the paddle forum. Anyone interested?

- darren

Yes I am interested.

I see two possible points to focus on:

1) A place to show off nice photos

2) helpful critiques.

For example I would post something I took, tell what camera, settings etc. what post-processing I did to it, etc. and then say what I like about it and what I don't like. Then the masses would (hopefully) weigh in with suggestions, critiques, etc. That's the way to learn. I could learn a lot. This thread is a perfect example of that process.

 

[Rob S]

Very interested.

I have an Olympus C-4000 Zoom that has a lot of manual controls. A friend who is a professional photog has taught me quite a bit, but I have a lot to learn. A special forum would be great.

Rob

 

[pudgy_groundhog]

I would love a forum too, for learning from others, sharing nature photos, and getting constructive criticism. There's another board I belong to that has a photography forum with very knowledgable and helpful people, but very few people take nature photos (mostly portraits).

 

[darren]

I belong to some other photo forums and my problem with them is that there seems to be: 1) too many people, 2)so many posts you can't keep up, 3) lack of moderation, 4) people posting tons of pictures - one after another after another after another and they are so busy posting pictures that they do not offer much help to other people and 5) I do not know anyone on those forums. I like it how a lot of us here know each other.

Just some thoughts.

- darren

 

[David Metsky]

I'd be in for a photography forum as well.

The SDxxx line has very limited controls. The Axxx line has many controls but not all. The Sx line has most, but they are not as easy to use as with a dSLR, especially the manual focus. Panosonic has an ultrazoom with a real focus ring. It's sweet, but there are other things about the camera I didn't like. I have an SD300 and an S3 IS.

-dave-

 

[Stan]

photography forum

Can those of who use disposable cameras come to this party?

How about the Camcorder crowd? I got a new one for Christmas which also takes stills ... now I have to spring for a memory card, too.

 

[darren]

My father gave my mother a S2 IS. I checked it out for a while. I only looked at specs very briefly but I didn't see too much different between the S2 and the S3. 1 more MP. It has decent controls, but the main reasons I went with the SD800 for Carm is size and wide angle lens.

If I was going to carry the S2 I would just carry my DSLR. The S2/S3 is just a little too big to be able to carry easily. As you know with your SD300, that line you can stick right in your pocket.

The 28mm lens on the SD800 is also very nice. I'd be psyched for a 24mm lens on a P&S but the 28mm lens is a huge improvement on most P&S cameras that have only a 35 or 38mm wide end.

See...the photo talk is endless. Anyone else up for a forum?

- d

 

[DougPaul]

It has decent controls, but the main reasons I went with the SD800 for Carm is size and wide angle lens.

The 28mm lens on the SD800 is also very nice. I'd be psyched for a 24mm lens on a P&S but the 28mm lens is a huge improvement on most P&S cameras that have only a 35 or 38mm wide end.

I noticed the 28mm lens when I looked at a review of the SD800. That is something that I REALLY missed with the A75 (38mm min FL) for macro nature photography. (When I carried only one lens with my film SLR, it was my 28.) They seem to be rather scarce on P&S cameras.

As far as any forum is concerned, I'm more interested in the technical aspects than critiquing the artistic aspects of other's photos. (I do not currently follow any photo forums.)

BTW, lots of good technical and artistic info at http://www.luminous-landscape.com/.
Also good reviews of digital cameras at http://www.imaging-resource.com/.

Doug

 

[Tom Rankin]

Interested as well...