Differences Btwn Class 3+ & Class 4 Hiking

[lx93]

I'm planning some hikes in the Alps & west of the Mississippi, and want to get as challenging as possible without getting into technical climbing- I'm guessing either Class 3+ or Class 4.

So to give me a feel for using a Class 1 - Class 5 rating system, what would the following rate:

A) Owl's Head slide

B) Chimney on the Knife's Edge in Kathadin

C) Descent/Ascent from/to S. Twin to/from Galehead Hut

D) Chimney immediately before the summit of Emory Peak in Big Bend Ntl. Park, TX (I know, not too many people on VFTT have been there, so skip this one if it's N/A for you)

E) Ascending the Hancocks (the really steep parts)

F) Mini-chimney immediately between Garfield's summit & the Garfield Trail

Haven't done any of the headwalls on Mt. Washington, I did it the "easy way" via the Crawford Path, so I can't relate to anything like Tuckerman Ravine, Lion's Head, etc.

Any other info which can make this a little clearer will be welcomed.

 

[David Metsky]

Here's a good description: http://www.climber.org/data/decimal.html#basic

I haven't done D but all the others are pretty basic class 2+ and 3. There really are no trails in New Hampshire that are class 4.

Of your list, I'd put C, E, and F at 2+. I'd put A, B, and E as 3. Even Huntington is class 3, Huntington and Lions Head are 2 or 2+. Class 4 is not something to tackle lightly.

-dave-

 

[nartreb]

The link that Dave Metsky provided is probably the best description out there. Read the whole thing through to appreciate how variable it is. One quick note to emphasize that: YDS ratings are supposed to be based on the crux, the single hardest move. So in theory the Bondcliff trail, five miles of class 1 or 2, should be rated class 4 (or at least a 3, anyway) because of that one step just below the top on the south side of Bondcliff - though that depends on your definition of class 3 or 4, so I'll give mine:

I may be in a minority, but I like the "number of limbs" approximation of YDS because it's simple and relatively objective:
1) trail can be done hopping or on a unicycle - no significant steeps or boulders
2) trail requires two feet, or could possibly be done (downhill, anyway) by an enthusiast on a mountain bike - may have steep or rocky sections, but nothing requiring the use of hands.
3) Trail requires two feet and one hand
4) Trail requires both feet and both hands
5) Two hands, two feet, and a rope; may require actual climbing technique.

By that standard, here's my take on your list:

a) Hard 2 or easy 3 - may depend on conditions.
b) Definitely a 4 (but short). You may recall me having trouble hanging on to my hiking pole because I needed both hands.
c) Class 2, maybe even 1. Steep enough to be tiring, but a fairly smooth trail.
d) n/a
e) n/a
f) n/a - i've been on that trail but don't remember a "mini-chimney."

Take this all with a pound of salt - there is no system (including mine) that can explain the difference between a 4.9 and a 5.1.

 

[AMF]

I'd agree w/ Mr. Metsky, & add that D is certainly not above 3. For a 4 in the east, the closest I can think is Eagle Slide in the Adirondacks.

amf

 

[David Metsky]

I saw a guy hike the Chimney on the Knife's Edge at Baxter in flip-flops without using his hands. He was pretty gifted, but I can't see it as a class 4 even for that short stretch. You just can't fall very far.

-dave-

 

[lx93]

Dave, Nartreb, AMF, I definitely appreciate the feedback.

Would you say that Class 4 is hard enough that basic technical gear would be necessary?

 

[David Metsky]

One of the criteria of Class 4 is that you would die if you fell, therefore it requires belay. Whether you wish to use climbing gear in that situation is up to you.

Class 4 is very scary, it is not really hiking as we normally use the word.

-dave-

 

[AntlerPeak]

Dave, Nartreb, AMF, I definitely appreciate the feedback.

Would you say that Class 4 is hard enough that basic technical gear would be necessary?

I would say yes, some won't what is certain is that with class four you are on the edge or crossed over it. Here is a link to a trip report with plenty of pictures. The author described it as a class 4.5-5+ I have been on the snow field and seen this thing close up. If this is what's called a typical 4.5 then you need tech gear. What is the diff between 4 & 4.5 I don't know. I have done some 3's that were pretty hairy, good enough for me.

http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14853

 

[AntlerPeak]

Now that I got thinking about this matter of class it brings to mind a few experiences. Back 30 years ago the first time I climbed the slide on Macomb the info was much less than what we have today. The word then was to follow the stream from Slide Brook lean-to, take the right tributary which leads to the slide. Ascend the slide keeping to the left and near the top a herd path ascends through the brush.

All of that was well and good except the slide looked not like a slide it appeared as a high gravel bank through the trees. We went further and climbed the main slide that was far steeper. We were well up when we finally saw the correct slide to our left. There was no way you could "bear" left to it. At one point it steepened severely to were our only option was to traverse a horizontal crack half the width of your foot about twenty five feet to a more secure purchase on the right. We dead ended below a ledge with a tree growing in the center of it. My partner who is about four inches taller than I could reach the tree, I could not. He pulled himself up. Once secured he hung his leg over the edge to which I grabbed with a death hold to reach the ledge. He kept saying "I said hold on with your hands not your teeth!" This had to be at least a class 4.

In Washington we climbed 8000 foot Old Snowy where the last five hundred feet were considered a class 3 scramble up a scree slope. That in itself was quite hairy requiring the use of two feet and sometimes one, sometimes two hands. But a fall would have been short not likely causing death but serious injury very likely when you hit those pointed rocks a few feet below. 95 % of the hike is what we normally think of as hiking only that last 5% was class 3. At no time were you exposed to a point where you felt in danger but you were relegated to stretching, pulling with arms and pushing with feet to get over some exposed sections.

 

[DougPaul]

Would you say that Class 4 is hard enough that basic technical gear would be necessary?

There are a variety of definitions for the classes--all are defined by consensus and are judgement calls. They may also vary by region or group. And the defs are fuzzy so that arguing about a difficulty of 4.9 vs 5.0 may be pointless...

From Freedom of the Hills (7th ed):
* Class 1: Hiking
* Class 2: Simple scrambing, with possible occasional use of the hands
* Class 3: Scrambing; a rope might be carried
* Class 4: Simple climbing, often with exposure. A rope is often used. A fall on Class-4 rock could be fatal. Typically, natural protection can be easily found.
* Class 5: Where rock climbing begins in earnest. Climbing involves the use of a rope, belaying, and protection (natural or artificial) to protect the leader from a long fall.

Another set of defs that I have seen is (my phrasing):
* Class 3: Scrambing, requires use of hands, rope not required.
* Class 4: Scrambling, requires use of hands. A fall could result in serious injury or death. Rope required: running belays* used, no fixed belays*.
* Class 5: Rock climbing, fixed belays used.

The above definitions can be used to describe not only the difficulty of the route, but the method used to travel it as in: "he 3rd classed the route".

Remember, too, that some people climb 5.10+ (ie difficult rock climbs) without a rope, so technically one could talk about 3rd classing a 5.10+ climb. (Actually, it is usually called a free solo.)

In practice, the methods that a group of climbers use will depend upon the skills of the group members (and the conditions)--one might belay 3rd class terrain for beginners or not belay experts on 4th or easy 5th class terrain.

So, for 4th class (rock) terrain for less than expert climbers, a 120 ft of 9mm rope, a few carabiners, and a few slings might be appropriate. On ice/snow a few ice screws and/or pickets might be carried. Experts can decide their own risk vs equipment trade-offs.

On 3rd class terrain with beginners/klutzes, it might be worth bringing 50-120ft of 9mm rope. (I have been in parties where we have done this.)

FWIW, a signifcant number of the greats die on 4th class terrain...


* def: fixed belay: The (stationary) belayer is anchored and controls the rope to the climber. The rope may go though intermediate points of protection (anchored carabiners clipped around the rope--the rope can slide freely though these carabiners).

* def: running belay: Anchors are placed, carabiners are attached, and clipped around the rope. The rope can slide freely though the carabiners--both climbers can move simultaneously.

Doug


PS: my opinions for your list:
B) Chimney on the Knife's Edge in Kathadin
(I presume you mean the short steep section of trail between Chimney Notch and Chimney Peak--the Chimney proper is the gully leading down toward Chimney Pond (a climb in its own right).) 2nd or 3rd. (I have belayed it in winter (mixed rock and ice/snow) and free soloed in summer.)

C) Descent/Ascent from/to S. Twin to/from Galehead Hut
1st or 2nd--its just a bit of trail.

E) Ascending the Hancocks (the really steep parts)
1st or 2nd--its just a bit of trail.

F) Mini-chimney immediately between Garfield's summit & the Garfield Trail
1st or 2nd.

And let me add:
* Dudley Tr on Katahdin: 3rd--sustained boulder climbing requiring frequent use of hands
* Huntington Tr (the steep slab part): 3rd
* Tripyramid N Slide: 3rd
* Tripyramid S slide: 2nd
* Oceola chimney: 3rd (would be easy 5th if sustained) Actually, hardly worth rating because it is so short...

 

[DougPaul]

I'm planning some hikes in the Alps & west of the Mississippi, and want to get as challenging as possible without getting into technical climbing- I'm guessing either Class 3+ or Class 4.

I would suggest that you consider class 4 to be easy technical climbing with serious risk--technical climbing skills may be requried to climb it with acceptable risk.

And technical climbing skills are also desirable for class 3. For instance, the steep slabby section of Huntington Tr is trivial with easy rock moves--the slab has an inside corner with a crack in it on the right. Just hook your fingers in the crack. layback, and walk right up. (In contrast, I've seen a beginner freeze at that spot--another guy and I had to push and pull to get him up...)

I suggest that you start with the easy 3s and build up. The ratings will be inconsistent and conditions may vary wildly on any given day. Keep your judgement turned on and be ready to turn back if you think it is too hard or risky.

Doug

edit: One more thought: if you do need to retreat on 3rd or 4th class terrain, you may want/need a rope on the way down, even if you didn't on the way up...

 

[jfb]

.

Any other info which can make this a little clearer will be welcomed.

I've seen an explanation to the effect that on 4th class climbs, the experienced leader drags a rope behind him which he uses to protect the inexperienced follower on the difficult sections.

 

[lx93]

Ratings w/ Ice

Thanx for all the good info, I had really underestimated the ratings system and would've been in for a rude awakening.

Another question would be, how does ice/snow play into the ratings? I.e., do the ratings typically include ice?

 

[AOC-1]

No, ice is a separate classification system. Water ice (WI), alpine ice (AI), northeast ice (NEI). That's not to say you won't encounter ice in spring and early summer in some areas out west, but the rock classifcation (e.g., 3 / 4) does not account for it. You mention visiting areas west of the Mississippi. If that includes Washington State, be aware that Fred Beckey, author of the classic 3-volume Cascade alpine guides, is notorious for his "class 4 gullies," which feel like class 5 to many climbers.

 

[DougPaul]

Thanx for all the good info, I had really underestimated the ratings system and would've been in for a rude awakening.

Another question would be, how does ice/snow play into the ratings? I.e., do the ratings typically include ice?

Unlikely. Ice and snow on a route come and go. Ratings tend to assume the route is in good condition... Thin ice and snow tend to make a route harder, but when they become thick (pure ice/snow climbing) it can become easier.

The rating systems for ice (AI, WI, NEI), are for rating pure ice climbs, not ice that happens to be on a 3rd or 4th class rock route.

When you get significant amounts of both rock and ice/snow, you are dealing with mixed climbing. Neat stuff...

Doug

 

[jfb]

One thing to worry about when climbing on snowfields in the summertime is that the snow can melt from below and become too thin to support your weight.

 

[Jeff-B]

Lots of great info here, only wish we had more chances to use it in the east!
I agree with Doug P. as quoted in "Freedom of the Hills".

NH has several Class 3 routes which are actually "maintained trails", like Huntington Ravine and North Tri-P slide.
I thought the Abol Slide route up Katahdin could have been a C3 as well, if you made it so, and took every boulder in earnest!

I have been working on "My list" of "Top 10 most difficult trails" in the Whites, where I classifiy such as:
1) Listed as a maintained hiking trail in AMC Guide
2) Not bushwhacked (is maintained as blazed trail)
3) Use of overhand rock climbing techniques required

So far here is the order:

1) Huntington Ravine (C3)
2) North Tripyramid Slide (C3)
3) Flume Slide (C3-)
4) Great Gulf Headwall (C2+)
5) Kings Ravine, w/caves (C2+)
6) Great Gully (C2+)
7) Jefferson Ravine (C2)
8) Madison Gulf (C2)
9) South Tripyramid Slide (C2)
10) Six Husbands Trail (C2)

Jeff

 

[Mike P.]

What are your plans in Europe & out West?

Several people on this board have been to CO & Europe.

 

[lx93]

Mike,

Nothing is set in stone right now, but in Europe I had in mind the Swiss Alps, while out West I'm considering anything which isn't technical (not afraid, but my wallet has already taken enough of a hit from quality hiking gear).

Some possibilities are the Northern Cascades in OR/WA, the 14'ers in CO which can be hiked, Sierra Vista (12k+) in NM, lottsa good hiking all over ID/MT/WY/UT. In short, anything that's at least 12k in elevation and has great views.

One thing I really liked re: hiking west of the Mississippi was not having to worry about awesome views being totally fogged in like what happened when I bagged Mousilauke & Carrigain.

This is what happens when you live in a land w/ time to plan out hikes, but no opportunities to actually do them. As it's been 90 days since I was above treeline, I'm going thru withdrawal symptoms!

 

[bill bowden]

With regard to Jeff's list

Done them all except Madison Gulf; and his ratings seems quite fair to me. I would rate the top of the Holt Trail on Mount Cardigan as quite a reasonable challenge along with the OJI slide in Baxter.

This whole 4th-5th class thing could use some serious re-thinking as the questions of difficulty of effort take second fiddle to exposure and "what happens if you fall" There are a bunch of pretty classic easy rock climbs in the 5.3-5.6 range (start of Lakeview, Dirtigo, main route at Square Ledge) which aren't as difficult as the top of the Holt or parts of Huntingdon Ravine, but you may fall 100+ feet if you slip while the consequences on a hiking trail may be nasty but likely not fatal.

As a long time hiker and enthusiastic if unskilled rock climber there's no maintained trail in NE that crosses into technical rock.