Esprit de corps

[MadRiver]

I have often mentioned to my non-hiking friends that hikers in general seem to have a higher sense of esprit de corps compared to other sports/hobbes/activities because the consequences of inaction are far more severe. Most of us have given food, water, clothing, etc to other hikers without a second thought. I have personally given up my nice warm down bag to someone whose synthetic bag was less than adequate on a winter overnight, while also making certain that other people’s needs were met as well. This is especially true if you are the one who orchestrated the little adventure.

However, are there limits to our generosity? Barring placing yourself in a life threatening situation, what circumstance would prompt you to pass on lending a helping hand? Forgetfulness (as in I forgot an item)? Stupidity (as in I forgot most items)? Extreme Stupidity (as in I forgot everything)? Pathological Stupidity (as in I am standing on top of Mt. Adams naked in a snow storm and needing help)?

Any takers?

 

[NH_Mtn_Hiker]

However, are there limits to our generosity? Barring placing yourself in a life threatening situation, what circumstance would prompt you to pass on lending a helping hand?

Hmmm, I can't think of any reason why I wouldn't be willing to help out someone in my hiking group. As far as strangers encountered along the way; as long as it didn't jepardize the group I was with, I'd still do what I could to help even if stupidity was the reason for their current situation. (Especially in winter conditions or other life threatening situations)

....Don't think this means I'm willing to share all of Dugan's home baked goodies though. A few maybe...

 

[sapblatt]

How much help?

Well...if you hike with Rols, like I do, the chances of being caught without something are nonexistent.
I do like to get a feel for what the people I am hiking with have done before and converstions, PMs and e-mails often turn to gear, etc. I do not mind helping, but I would expect people I hike with to be prepared for rain, have enough water (or a group filter), and in most cases, if not all be prepared (or have a plan) if you would have to stay out for a night.
That being said I would always help as long as I do not have to jeopardize my own life...

 

[Jim lombard]

However, are there limits to our generosity?

I hope not. Helping, brings out the best in people.

In Oct 2000 an experienced hiker was doing Franconia ridge when he collapsed. He had diabetes and was fading into a coma when Two female hikers happened upon him and his wife. One, a diabetes educator was able to call for a helicopter from Dartmouth while others provided things like..a sleeping bag, gu-gel, cell phone and muscle to carry him to a flat spot near Haystack. People were thrilled to help and when that blackhawk helicopter lifted off Haystack and carried him safely away people felt like they had done something worthwhile.

 

[John H Swanson]

Limits on Helping People

I have less and less patience these days when it comes to very incompetent people in the woods. I seem to see many people that fall into this category as I do much of my hiking near NYC. In general it hasn't come to the point of refusing to help people, though I have walked away from a few people with non-life threatening needs. This usually happens when they request help from two people and I can walk away faster than the other person.

Sometimes I help but only after getting a laugh at their expense. I can remeber the girl scout troop that need directions. I seriously offered them the answer for $50. Then after a few minutes I rattled off the directions without pauses for comprehension, but evetually I sent them home correctly.

I am very concerned about giving away my safety factor to help others. For instance, I will often not lend my second pair of gloves, but I will lend my third pair if my second are still dry and in reserve.

But when the _hit hits the fan, I usually deliver the needed aid ... while obeying the #1 rule of rescue all the time.

 

[rhihn]

Great thread! I've been on both sides of the equation. One time I was descending a mountain and I gave some extra water to a hiker who had little or no water, and who was going up a mountain with no water farther up. But I had more than enough, and brought a filter for lower streams, so it wasn't a hardship for me, and they were more than grateful. I have shared food with some who forgot their lunch on a dayhike - but I've also forgotten mine once or twice, and was offered an extra sandwich. Once, while hiking Mt. Mitchell with a NC hiking club (equiv. of ADK), I forgot my rain gear. I had NEVER done that before, and it was embarrassing. Someone had one of those plastic throw-aways for just such an occasion. On overnights things can be potentially more serious, depending upon the item forgotten. I often have extra clothing items for myself, and I'm happy to share them in an emergency. It depends upon the forgotten item, length of trip, length from trailhead, weather, etc. If turning around is not an option, I might suggest they join us (squeeze in a tent, follow closely with our headlamps, share a little food, etc. If it seemed to be a "life and death" situation, I'd scrap our trip to get the person back safely.

I've written this quickly, and no doubt haven't thought through all the ramifications and possibilities. I'll be interested to hear other thoughts.

 

[MadRiver]

To make this a tad easier, let’s assume that we will always help someone in need in our own group. After all, they are our friends, right? So the question then shifts to others in need. Say for instance, you are camping at Guyot and in walks Moe, Larry, and Curly (Shep couldn’t make it) and proceed to unpack. To their horror, and your mild amusement they have forgotten a stove, one sleeping bag, water filter, dishes and utensils, half their food, tent poles, flashlight, maps, and an assortment of other items that constitute your own personal ten essentials.

I would like to think that most of us without hesitation would begin marshalling whatever resources they lack to ensure survival. That being said is there a point that you have to throw up your arms in disgust and say enough is enough. Their survival is no longer in question, your generosity has seen to that, but they might not be as comfortable as they would like to be.

 

[WhiteMTHike]

Their survival is no longer in question, your generosity has seen to that, but they might not be as comfortable as they would like to be.

That line says it all. As long as I'm able to help a person survive then I've done what any considerate hiker would do. Personal comfort is up to the individual.

 

[MadRiver]

In Oct 2000 an experienced hiker was doing Franconia ridge when he collapsed. He had diabetes and was fading into a coma when Two female hikers happened upon him and his wife. One, a diabetes educator was able to call for a helicopter from Dartmouth while others provided things like..a sleeping bag, gu-gel, cell phone and muscle to carry him to a flat spot near Haystack. People were thrilled to help and when that blackhawk helicopter lifted off Haystack and carried him safely away people felt like they had done something worthwhile.

I do not mean this type of situation. Helping an injured hiker is a given. In fact, it is a categorical imperative. I’m more interested in the Three Stooges type scenario. Similar to the scene in The Deer Hunter when they all go hunting and one of them forgets his boots.

 

[amstony]

Interesting thread. I'd never want to leave someone out there in distress. I'll always help out another hiker with directions, etc. If the hiker is with me and he or she runs into trouble- then the hike is over and its back to the trailhead. The mountain will be there next week.

In the summer months I usually carry 2 extra Poland Spring bottles in the bottom of the pack besides my camelback, nalgene, and a bottle of that "smart water". I have them for myself, or worst case, can pass them on to the hiker in distress. I don't do much winter hiking, but always have more than enough pairs of gloves, fleece, hats, food, power bars, etc, etc for myself or another person. I also tend to hike at a fast speed, but always wait at roads and trail junctions, and if the person I'm with doesn't show up I back track to make sure they haven't fallen in a stream, been ate by a bear , or kidnapped by aliens.. +

An excellent perspective on this type of behavior is Joe Simpson's book- Dark Shadows Falling definitley worth a read.

 

[canoehead]

helping out?


people generaly have the best of intentions when they decide to venture off into the woods, but sometimes they are completely clueless as to how things are done in the outdoors.
i was on the PCT in the BigBear area (Nobo) when i came across an entire family lost. after sometime of telling these people they needed to turn around and go back up the mountain 8,000' ( Bertha ) from were they came, it took some effort but they did listen, they did ask if i would lead them back to the trail head (cougar pass) and i did it. between 11 people they had a gallon size plastic jar of snacks, and a couple of Mountain Dews no one was prepared to be out overnight at 8,000' in october and they were headed deeper into the trail If i had not stopped them when i did who knows were they would have ended up. yes it did take me way out of the way but it was worth it.at the end everyone was safe. .
i hope soeone would give me a hand if i needed it

 

[Papa Bear]

Just this summer I was doing the Hancocks with Dr. McPeak and we met a group of young (12ish) boys doing the loop the other way with a couple of adult leaders. They were from some camp and we had previously spotted them below scouting for a camp site. 2 or 3 of them were stopped with a leader. One kid had bad blisters. They leader had no appropriate first aid. He kept saying the camp nurse had not packed the right things in the kit.

I gave hime some band aids, vaseline, etc. to help the kid. And I asked him as the leader shouldn't he have checked the kit. I think he was appropriately embarassed and I hope he does a better job of checking his gear next time.

 

[poison ivy]

I have always gone out of my way to help people out... figuring that one day I'll be in a situation where I need the good will of others and hopefully they'll do the same. While hiking down from the summit of Mt. Whitney, I gave away almost all of my water to people who did not bring enough... knowing that I had a water filter waiting for me a mile or two away at our camp site. I've let people borrow my stove to boil water more times than I can count because theirs didn't work properly.

That said, I have on occaision become annoyed with the level of unpreparedness I've seen, especially when it isn't an issue of forgetting something or something breaking. I'm talking about people who don't carry maps, for example, which drives me up the wall. I can also remember a trip on the LT in Vermont where *several* people asked to borrow my water filter because they didn't carry one. I let everyone use it, but I sure did grumble about it to my companions.

- Ivy

 

[jjmcgo]

I once did an AT section hike in southern Pennsylvania in which I drank all the water I had carried because there was a stream crossing just before the shelter I planned to stay in. When I got to the stream, there was a relatively new sign warning of water pollution. Do not drink the water even if filtered.
I knew there was a spring about a mile from the shelter, which wasn't something I looked forward to doing after a 14-mile up-and-down walk. A SOBO hiker already at the shelter gave me water to drink and for cooking. The next morning, I got water at the next spring on the trail.
I was very grateful to avoid a 2-mile walk in the dark.
One reason I drank all my water is that I was looking forward to getting rid of the tap water and replacing it with fresh, cold, pure mountain stream water!

 

[Jim lombard]

I do not mean this type of situation. Helping an injured hiker is a given. In fact, it is a categorical imperative. I’m more interested in the Three Stooges type scenario. Similar to the scene in The Deer Hunter when they all go hunting and one of them forgets his boots.

Yeah I know...but you still do it. Grumble like Poison Ivy says but do it.

By the way, for the diabetic hikers out there, carry a couple of pkgs of Gu-gel in your pack. It could save your life.

 

[MadRiver]

Yeah I know...but you still do it. Grumble like Poison Ivy says but do it.

Up to the point that mountain etiquette and good breeding dictates, after that they are on their own.

 

[jade]

I can't imagine any scenario where I would not aid someone in need or trouble on the trails. That being said, I would also offer my safety lecture once the situation was secure......

Last week while staying at Joe Dodge Lodge at Pinkham Notch I was chatting with a guy who was heading up to Mt. Washington. He had a 20 year old school pack back, a bottle of Gatorade and all cotton clothing. I felt compelled to discuss the benefits of synthetic materials over cotton when heading out especially to Washington. His hiking partner, his 19 year old son, walked in ready to hike dressed in jeans and a cotton sweat shirt. Argghh....I felt I did my bit but am left feeling frustrated to know how many people head out without proper gear and clothing...

...Jade

 

[KayakDan]

We have had several occasions during winter trips where we have shared food,clothes,gloves etc. Had to help out with a broken finger from an ice axe,and of course the assortment of moleskin,bandaids etc. Never even considered a time when we wouldn't help. I can't say that we ever ran into someone totally unprepared,as that doesn't happen much in winter,but now and then everyone is caught fishing through their backpack muttering"crap!...I can't believe I forgot my(fill in the blank)
As for just being nice because you can,this was a favorite. We were camped on Crow Is in Muscongus Bay,and just about dusk I see two very tired paddlers sitting in kayaks off the island,studying a chart with a puzzled look. I walked down to the shore and asked "Crow?" "Yeah,any idea if we're close?" "Your here" I replied and showed them where to land. When they trudged into the campsite we told them"grab a place to sit,supper is ready-and there's cold beer in the cooler in my boat"
Obviously a couple of new "expedition kayakers" off to a tough start,and we just decided to make the day a little easier. In fact,we remembered a time it was done for us many years ago.

 

[slamdog]

I usually over pack, including food and water. I often ask the smaller trail crews if they have enough food etc. I often ask people if they have everything they need if they look a little less than prepared. I've filled water bottles for folks w/out filters, given extra bottles to some guys that were heading in, when I was heading out, and that time, I think it was good timing because one hiker was ready to kill his partner because he was the one that was supposed to bring some extra containers. I've given up my gatorade for those that have been all cramped up etc. On the flip side, people have asked me the same (maybe I'm one of those guys that looks like he needs a lot of help). That's been one of the greatest beauties of hiking, just about every single person I've encountered has been great with minor exceptions. To answer the thread question, no, I don't think there's a limit to what i would do or offer someone out there. slamdog

 

[MadRiver]

I recently encountered a large group 40 + seminary students hiking up Washington dressed in their typical uniform of Dockers and white polo shirts with day purses as their only accessory. Lord (pun intended) only knows what would have happened if the weather turned.

This is precisely the type of scenario I mean. If it were one or two, I could have helped them with added clothing or shelter (rain fly). But 40+? There would be nothing I could do but watch in horror as they battled the elements.