experience with portable radios?

[nickdu]

I wasn't sure if I should reply to this thread or start a new one. I'm looking to get some sort of two way device so that we can communicate with our kids while they're skiing. I guess most people have some sort of walkie talkie. I usually do some amount of research before buying any sort of technology so that I don't end up throwing money away and having to spend more to get the product I should have purchased the first time.

From this thread it appears that these FRS walkie talkies might only be good for 1/4 mile. That doesn't sound too good. Also, since terrain can be a factor I'm guessing it will be a factor in our case as we'll be using them on a mountain.

Any suggestions on good quality two way radios would be appreciated. Also, I'm totally new to this stuff so if someone can point me to a site which describes this technology that would be good too (for instance, what's HT, HF, 2M). I did a cursory search on google, but most of the hits appear to be reviews or sites that sell these radios. If I would like to get into ham radios where should I start? Is there a good site? By the way, I'm located in NJ.

 

[SAR-EMT40]

what's HT, HF, 2M

HT - Handi Talkie: what people used to call a walkie talkie but most are much, much smaller that the old walkie talkies.

HF - High Frequency. Don't worry about this it doesn't have any application in what you are trying to do right now.

2M - 2 meter radios. They make them as HT's many the size of a pack of cigarettes with 2 to 5 watts output and can use repeaters but require a license to use them. 2 meters is the wavelength. The frequency is from 144Mhz to 148Mhz which is the 2 Meter allocation for the amateur band.

If I would like to get into ham radios where should I start? Is there a good site?

ARRL getting started in amateur radio

Also feel free to send me an email if you need more info.

Keith
N1XTK

 

[nickdu]

Thanks. I'll definitely check out the link you provided. Can you clarify a couple things?

So everything that used to be a walkie talkie in the past is now a HT? No differences between them? When you say that they are making 2M radios as HT's I'm guessing that HT is somewhat synonomous with the form factor then? A license is required to use the repeater, 2M radio, or both?

Do you have a recommendation for me based on what I plan on using it for?

 

[SAR-EMT40]

Wow. Good questions.

The only real walkie talkie that I am familiar with is this.

Walkie talkie I believe that this was the real walkie talkie but the name still continues to be used with just about any portable hand held radio.

HT's (handie talkies) are any hand held radio also though mostly referring to small 2 meter and sometimes dual and triple bands radios as well. Examples of some amateur HT's are:

Kenwood THF6

Yaesu FT-50R

I own both and both are spectacular outdoor radios and there are many others.

An amateur license is required to use repeaters and radios on the amateur bands which the 2 meter band you are talking about is on. Most other repeaters require a license also but don’t necessarily have to be on the amateur bands. I.e. there are many commercial repeaters on GMRS and other frequencies. Those require a license and usually permission from the owner as well. Repeaters are not cheap to buy or operate.

As far as should you get a license. Absolutely, if you intend to use a 2 meter radio. Not doing so will get you in hot water. Does your situation require one. Hard to tell. I would need to know more about where your planning on being, distances involved, the terrain, etc. The thing about amateur radio isn't it isn't a no brainer like cell phones or FRS radios. You need to know something. Hence the testing. It isn't difficult, but that knowledge gives you options that will allow you communicate under varying conditions.

Let me know if I can help with any other questions.

Keith

 

[nickdu]

Thanks. Obviously there is a lot of reading I need to do. As I mentioned, I did a cursory search on google and didn't find much. There was however this match: http://outside.away.com/outside/news/200404/walkie_talkie.html. It seems to indicate that GMRS is on more powerful channels than FRS. From comments in this thread (or others on this site) it was said that GMRS is no better than FRS.

I assume the wattage is one parameter which can improve your signal. I'm guessing wave length determines how well the signal will move through obstacles. Do different channels transmit at different wave lengths?

 

[SAR-EMT40]

It seems to indicate that GMRS is on more powerful channels than FRS. From comments in this thread (or others on this site) it was said that GMRS is no better than FRS.

FRS uses the lower 16 GMRS frequencies which pi__es off the GMRS people to no end because they paid money for that access in the form of licenses and also repeater equipment in many cases. Then they get to hear 5 year olds on "their" frequencies saying "can you hear me now?" every 5 seconds.

The GMRS radios do have greater power but the extra power of a GMRS radio without a repeater won't neccesarily make a tremendous difference in the distance that you are heard over. Many other factors come into play such as the type of terrain. Also, doubling the power doesn't double the distance. GMRS radios and 2M amateur handhelds typically output 5 watts of power. FRS radios are limited by law to 1/2 a watt. You are outputting 10 times the power with GMRS but you won't transmit all that much farther. Also you can't modify or attach better anntennas on FRS rigs either.

I assume the wattage is one parameter which can improve your signal. I'm guessing wave length determines how well the signal will move through obstacles. Do different channels transmit at different wave lengths?

Power is one output variable. There is also something called effective radiated power which is related to antenna design and location. How the signal propagates is dependent on the frequency that is being used and how it easily it travels through certain materials (if at all) is also frequency dependant.

Keith

 

[DougPaul]

So everything that used to be a walkie talkie in the past is now a HT? No differences between them? When you say that they are making 2M radios as HT's I'm guessing that HT is somewhat synonomous with the form factor then? A license is required to use the repeater, 2M radio, or both?

I always figured the two terms were synonymous, at least in the ham world.

Do you have a recommendation for me based on what I plan on using it for?

In general, 2M HTs will also be pretty short range--low power and low, no-gain antennas. (I haven't actually measured the range of 2 HTs in
the trees--I have for FRS radios.) If you are in a place where you both can access the same repeater, then the range can be a lot greater. But there are many places in the woods from which you cannot access a repeater.

You said "for skiing", but didn't say where or what type.

Many people seem to use FRS radios for downhill skiing. Many ski areas are all on one side of a mountain, and from the base area, one can get a fairly good line-of-sight to most of the area. (Get an FRS radio with "privacy codes" (access tones) for this purpose.)

Backcountry or XC area use is a bit more difficult. Depends upon the distance, foliage, terrain and the ability to access repeaters.

FRS radios are available for as little as $25/pair. 2M HTs start around $100 each. The lightest FRS radios are a good bit smaller and lighter that the lightest 2M HTs.

Also a ham license is required for each user--thus your kids will also have to get licenses to use them.

Doug
WB2QJE

 

[DougPaul]

FRS uses the lower 16 GMRS frequencies

14 IIRC.

Unfortuantely, many (most?) of the FRS hand-helds include some GMRS frequencies with no lockouts. The "FEATURE" is in large print on the box, the instructions pointing out the limitations are hidden in the fine print on the box or some similar hard-to-find and easily-lost place...

Power is one output variable. There is also something called effective radiated power which is related to antenna design and location.

FRS has legal limits on the power and antennas. The small hand-helds are about the best you can do.

Ham HTs have practical power (battery life) and antenna limits (physical difficulty in transporting and using). For 2M HT, about 5 watts is the max power and a negligible gain antenna is about all that is practical. (You can carry a larger antenna, but you will have to stop, assemble it and use it from a fixed location in most cases.)

Doug

 

[nickdu]

The first use for these would be for downhill skiing. And in most cases you're probably correct about all the runs being on the same face of the mountain. However, we were just up in Montreal and went skiing at Mont Tremblant for the first time. Myself and my kids ended up on the wrong side of the mountain. So I'm guessing this can happen and most likely will happen again to us. I believe the other side of the mountain was a 12 mile walk, not sure of the distance that a radio wave would travel, but I'm guessing the FRS and most likely the GMRS walkie talkies would not have worked in this situation. Maybe I'm going overboard and the FRS models will work fine for what we're looking to do.

 

[DougPaul]

The first use for these would be for downhill skiing. And in most cases you're probably correct about all the runs being on the same face of the mountain. However, we were just up in Montreal and went skiing at Mont Tremblant for the first time. Myself and my kids ended up on the wrong side of the mountain. So I'm guessing this can happen and most likely will happen again to us. I believe the other side of the mountain was a 12 mile walk, not sure of the distance that a radio wave would travel, but I'm guessing the FRS and most likely the GMRS walkie talkies would not have worked in this situation. Maybe I'm going overboard and the FRS models will work fine for what we're looking to do.

It might make sense to try the FRS first--cheaper and simpler. Sounds like they will meet much of your need.

FRS (~460 MHZ) is mostly line-of-sight. Some diffraction and scattering around corners. Somewhat absorbed by vegetation.

2M (144-148 MHZ) is still best at line-of-sight. Somewhat more diffraction and scattering around corners. Somewhat less absorbtion by vegetation.

Neither is particularly likely to get between valleys on opposite sides of a mountain without help from a repeater in a location that is visible from both locations.

Doug

 

[SAR-EMT40]

I just realized you are talking about Canada. My hint was when you said Montreal.

This changes everything. You no longer have GMRS radios as an option. GMRS radios currently (to my knowledge) are illegal in Canada and any FRS radios you use must have a Industry Canada or DOC stamp to be legal to use as well. It is only recently that IC allowed FRS radios to be used at all in their country.

Check carefully about this.

Also yes, I meant 14 FRS frequencies.

Keith

 

[nickdu]

My wife just picked up a Motorola TalkAbout FV500R. We only plan to use the FRS channels as we don't have a GMRS license. On the back of the box it says:

"FRS/GMRS use approved in the US only. ..."

I don't see any Industry Canada or DOC stamp (though I really don't know what one looks like, but I see no stamps at all on it). My wife called the 800 number on the box and the person on the other line told her this product could be used in Canada. I'm a bit skeptical about this.

Does anyone have any feedback on this product? Anyone have any other FRS radios they would recommend?

 

[DougPaul]

Does anyone have any feedback on this product? Anyone have any other FRS radios they would recommend?

The FV500 takes 3 AA cells which are a bit heavy. (Even heavier if you use rechargables.) There are a number of FRS radios (eg FV200) that take 3 AAA cells--smaller, lighter, fewer features.

I have a pair of AA battery radios and a pair of AAA battery radios. They perform similarly. When weight is an issue (ie hiking), I use the small ones. Otherwise I use the big ones.

Doug

 

[SAR-EMT40]

I'm a bit skeptical about this.

You should be. It cannot be legal in Canada if it has a GMRS capability which these apparently do. Just having that capability makes it illegal to use and cannot get the IC or DOC stamp. At least that is how I read it.

Keith

 

[pks4000]

VHF and Cell

Hi,
As far as bailing on your cell phone: Verizon explained to me 7 years ago that the reception distance is 35 miles line of site. There is a signal on top of almost all the 4000's in NH and Vermont in winter (I have not done The Bonds or Carrigain or Jefferson,Abraham (Vt) yet). Doing Abraham Friday
So the little bugger only weighs 8 oz and will work in most high places depending on the service company you use. As many have replied powerful units in the VHF category are heavier and may be even less reliable.
Try comparing signal strength with other people (I know you solo a lot so that may be diffcult) . In short we found Verizon to be slightly more reliable
but still often frustrating.
Climb on

 

[DougPaul]

So the little bugger [cell phone] only weighs 8 oz and will work in most high places depending on the service company you use. As many have replied powerful units in the VHF category are heavier and may be even less reliable.

My 5W 2M HT weighs 8oz. There are 2M repeaters on Cannon Mt and Mt Washington, and in Littleton, Whitefield, and N. Conway. If all else is equal, 2M (144-148 MHz) tends to have a longer range than the higher frequencies used by cell phones. I haven't checked coverage myself, but I have heard that coverage extends into many of the valleys, particularly if you bring an oz or two more of external antenna (J-pole). 2M signals also goe around corners better than do the higher cell frequencies and are less affected by wet vegetation.

I have used my 2M HT at 28 mi from a repeater and 45 mi from a repeater using an antenna similar the the one mentioned above. From my home, I have communicated with a portable station on Moosilauke, 115 mi away (don't know his power and antenna).

I wouldn't count either cell phones or 2M HTs out as viable communication devices in the Whites.

Doug