Fatality on Mt. Guyot

[lia1203]

I think in all these incidents there are 2 things commonly trotted out, particularly on social media, that are incorrect:

1) That when a person is very experienced they do not make bad decisions.
2) That our freedom to do whatever we want with our lives in some way means we do not make bad decisions because we're free to do what we want.

Your level of experience and freedom to do what you want to do does not automatically make you infallible and just a victim of bad luck. Everyone can make bad decisions and do stupid stuff. And sometimes that stuff is fatal. If you watch enough mountaineering documentaries you'll find countless examples of extraordinarily fit and experienced climbers getting killed because of bad decisions based on emotions - pride, guilt, summit fever, money spent on the trip, etc. Many local examples of this right here in the Whites over the years. Everyone is quick to dismiss this obvious fact because they were very experienced, had the best gear, blah, blah, blah. The freedom to make a bad decision does not alter the fact of a bad decision.

I remember on Facebook after the Kate Mastrova incident arguing with someone on Facebook about her assertion specifically that Kate was free to do what she wanted and did not make any mistakes on her hike. I asked her if she made no mistakes then it must have been Kate's plan to die on her hike and she kept going back to it being her right to do what she wanted and live her life and she did nothing wrong. OK. Agree to disagree I guess....

Thank you so much for saying that! Being experienced doesn't mean they don't make mistakes and sometimes because of their experience, the mistakes could be fatal-- most people in the 4k hiking group can't accept that.

 

[ImYourHuckleberry]

I would guess that most people that die on a hike (excluding medical causes) made some mistakes. I'm not sure why that matters. Is anybody saying that this man didn't make any mistakes? I think the lesson in a case like this is that even very experienced people can make a mistake or series of mistakes that lead to death. It's humbling and not insulting imo.

 

[NH2112]

The problem with down, even the fancy new Downtek is its thermal value rapidly degrades if someone is physically exerting themselves in typical New England winter conditions unless the user has elected to make the jump to vapor barrier liner gear (pretty rare and definitely not very comfortable). Kate M reportedly had the latest and greatest expedition grade down climbing suit. Down is great for hunkering down waiting to be rescued but it acts like sponge if someone is perspiring. From an emergency gear perspective, I think the half bag that zips to mating down jacket is the better emergency gear than down pants , although the issue that when down is compressed, the insulating value is almost nill so a suitable and bulky foam pad is needed to sit or lie on.

My personal experience is the only time I pull out my down gear is when I am stopping for a few minutes or need to get warmed up, but it comes off once I am moving. AMC used to teach a fairly extreme regime of perpetually zipping/unzipping/taking on and taking off gear to maintain dry insulation but I dont really know anyone who actually is that disciplined. This may be divergence from a skier on lift equipped ski area, in between runs, they can head into the lodge, warm up and dry out while a hiker rarely has that luxury.

I’ve worn a light down jacket descending Kearsarge North and Chocorua on windy 0F days, at least until I got down to denser tree cover, but even just 10 minutes shoveling a foot of snow in the driveway had me sweating in it. I make it a habit of squeezing all the air out of down gear after use before it cools, hopefully pushing all the moisture out with it, but I know it’s not 100% effective. This year I’ve been using my Marmot Olden Polartec hoodie and that thing wicks & breathes so well I don’t get as cold when I stop.

 

[Andrew]

I recognized what you were saying, @Andrew, but in my view dying at 75 or 80 in a fiery crash or after a battle with dementia is better than dying at 37 "doing what you loved," especially when it means that your child does not get to know you and you do not get to see your child grow up. @BillyGr, I can guarantee you that Christopher Roma's son would rather that his father had lived another thirty years, then developed dementia and died five years later. (And I don't mean to belittle dementia or other extended deaths. They can be cruel.)

Usually when people say "they died doing what they loved doing," the deceased is too young. It is a trite comment trying to put a positive spin on a tragic event. If someone dies after a long-suffering illness, whether it was physically or mentallly painful or with dementia, death can be seen in a positive light. But when someone dies too young, because something went wrong, there is nothing good about their death. It is tragic and awful for the deceased and those who loved them. It's OK to say so.

Thanks TEO. I think any of us can only be left to wonder about these things and offer our own perspectives. Just happens the day before hearing about this tragedy, I was thinking deeply about what death might be like and specifically trying to imagine what some of the examples we both stated would actually be like. But I have a suspicion we don't have the ability to know after it happens, so what is the option at the moment of realization....if that is what is obviously happening, and you realize it. I said the slow goodbye over the past few years to a family member and towards the end she was trying to end it herself (I think she was also desperately trying to get outside- her true love), so I am left to wonder.
I had too many occasions of consoling family members of persons who died in the woods, often accompanying them down in a litter-carry group with their deceased loved one. The tragedy of the situation was quite apparent and acknowledged, and was not necessary to dwell on, but I always tried to find something meaningful about the situation to these folks and communicate it to them, and it has always been reciprocated with deep appreciation.

A point to consider with Ken Holmes' situation was that he was heavily equipped, although with gear that was not the latest, greatest, and lightest, as he had only what he could afford. But Ken did pretty well and from all indications survived the night in his (battered) tent intact up on the Bond ridges. The evidence from his tracks was he was strong and focused up until he hid behind the west facing boulder on Twin. His tracks leaving off after that were all over the place. So, duck behind the boulder as you bring yourself out into the force of the wind waiting for it to die down, which it didn't, so the ability to retain warmth diminished and the cold took over. Also, in Ken's case it was the unusual ice fog that contributed with the extreme bottoming out of temperature.
Cartophile - I was an SAR commander for a state agency for 8 years at Monadnock SP, and we always started a rescue crew on foot even if we had a helicopter enroute. There were always too many factors that could scrub the air mission at any moment. A bit likewise is even though you can start other motorized methods to get in, stuff too often goes wrong with machines at cold temperatures, so need to keep multiple options going.

An example would be one time we were notified by Dublin Fire & Rescue that they were responding to a deceased hiker about 1/2 way up the Dublin Trail. They requested NG helicopter from Concord and they started an ATV up the hiking trail. I started my crew from the state park HQ to drive to the trailhead and hike. My crew was the only equipped with a mountain litter and full mountain rescue kit, and they eventually hiked around the stuck ATV, passed the fire crew, and made it to the subject. The helicopter arrived, hovered over a ledge, and a med tech leapt to the ledge below (despite my colleagues fervently waving their arms and shouting not to do so). So my crew treated the med tech for his now broken ankle, and forgive my memory, I can't remember if the chopper picked up the injured tech, or had to first fly back to Concord to refuel. Thus I can't remember if in the end the subject was ultimately carried out in the litter, or if many hours later it was the chopper?
This of course all unfolded in a much less remote and more tame location.

 

[peakbagger]

I would like to see the statistics on how often a helicopter is called versus how often it can actually rescue a hiker. Helicopter rescues make great news and successful rescues are easy to film so my guess is the media overly represents them. If and when the new hanger in Milan is built, things may change but helicopters are very thirsty and when they fly up from Concord, they have already eaten up fuel and have to have enough to get back to Concord so their time on site is not that long. Sure if someone has a non weather related medical issue on a summer day and the weather is calm, call in a chopper and maybe the ground crews get an early night but when rescue is related to bad weather, my guess is at best if there is visibility they may be able to assist in locating a party or being scheduled in at later point for a recovery but expect its low odds they will actually save someone. Obviously, the incident commander is not going elect to call in all resources for a rescue but I expect they know in the back of their mind that they should stick with the tried and true ground based teams.

 

[Bushwacked]

My personal experience is the only time I pull out my down gear is when I am stopping for a few minutes or need to get warmed up, but it comes off once I am moving. AMC used to teach a fairly extreme regime of perpetually zipping/unzipping/taking on and taking off gear to maintain dry insulation but I dont really know anyone who actually is that disciplined.

Same. I hear people complain all the time about sweating and their puffy not being warm anymore. Idea...don't hike/climb in it. I rarely have more than my mid- to heavy-weight base layer and a shell when climbing or hiking strenuous sections. Sometimes no shell or just a base layer and vest if there is little/no snow in the trees. Down jacket goes on when I stop, comes off when I get climbing again. Moisture management is as important as warm gear imo.

 

[JoshandBaron]

Synthetic over down helps prevent moisture from condensing in the down, pushing it into the synthetic where it isn't an issue. My winter insulation systems consist of both down and climashield layers for this reason.

 

[B the Hiker]

What's good about dying doing something you loved? I don't see anything good about Christopher Roma's death. His son will never know his father and that really sucks. Hopefully we'll learn what was in his kit.

Thank you for this, TEO.

This poor young man's last hours were sheer terror and regret. They were not "doing what he loved"; just the opposite, it was his worst nightmare.

Can we finally put that ridiculous statement to bed once and for all? If he had been given the choice that morning in full knowledge of what would have happened, he would have stayed home.

 

[B the Hiker]

There are so many factors that can contribute to this scenario, it's difficult to put them all in a box, which is what most people try to do on Social Media. Doing a one day Pemi in the winter, means moving pretty fast and burning a lot of calories. Maybe he wasn't at the top of his game? (had a cold, tired) and his body just ran out of gas, that could put him in a state that hypothermia would clearly take advantage of. Most people in this forum get that, no need to dissect those factors, but my point is, a lot can happen on these long and fast hikes. I see ultra fast hikers pass me and my 25 lb pack and don't give it much of a thought, but their margin of error and mine are just not the same. Unlike most hikers, I have been caught out with just a daypack, I spent a night around 14k, temps in the 20's and I was injured. I had plenty of clothes and carry today pretty much what I had back then. No sleeping bag, no stove, no bivi. But, I am fit, know how to conserve energy and monitor my body. I have read and believe that people in survival situations either excel at it or they don't. Many stories of survival leave no rhyme or reason as to how they survived, I think it's will. Just for the record, I'm talking in generalizations here , I'm not second guessing or impugning this poor guy in any way at all. It's really a tragic event, but mountain climbing is inherently dangerous, something everyone needs to remember when they step off the pavement. Prayers for his family.

If this young man had set up a tent, warmed up water and ate dinner, and got into his -20 bag, he quite likely would be alive today. I do believe there is rhyme and reason to survival, and it has little to do with a "will to survive" and everything to do with carrying the gear you need to get through the worst-case scenario.

 

[dug]

Thank you for this, TEO.

This poor young man's last hours were sheer terror and regret. They were not "doing what he loved"; just the opposite, it was his worst nightmare.

Can we finally put that ridiculous statement to bed once and for all? If he had been given the choice that morning in full knowledge of what would have happened, he would have stayed home.

No death is "doing what you loved" Hell even if you had a heart attack while doing the dirty, grasping for air and feeling a massive pain in the chest isn't anything one loves.

However, the activity itself, he was doing what he loved. You are comparing two different things: living vs. dying. Try comparing methods of death: Would he rather go while hiking or being eaten by alligators?

Not sure why that is idea is upsetting.

 

[TEO]

No death is "doing what you loved" Hell even if you had a heart attack while doing the dirty, grasping for air and feeling a massive pain in the chest isn't anything one loves.

However, the activity itself, he was doing what he loved. You are comparing two different things: living vs. dying. Try comparing methods of death: Would he rather go while hiking or being eaten by alligators?

Not sure why that is idea is upsetting.

The three keys to a good death:

1. Do as many things in life as you can.
2. Love what you do.
3. Die doing what you love.

Example #1:
Person A loves to drive their car. Person dies in a fiery car crash. Person died doing what they loved.

Example #2:
Person B loves going for walks. Person dies from being hit by a car while crossing the road. Person died doing what they loved.

Example #3:
Person C loves wrestling alligators. Person dies after being eaten by alligators. Person died doing what they loved.

So, remember! Try as many different things as you can in life and love them no matter what. Then you, too, can die doing what you loved.

 

[Cartophile]

This discussion veers back and forth between the circumstances of the death and matters of appropriate gear. I'll make three further comments on the latter.

In winter, I pack a lightweight down sleeping bag and a bivy sack in case of emergency. I own a down winter bag, but it's very bulky, and I'm already carrying a large pack. (I'd use the bag for an intentional overnight.) I know I'm making a sort of trade-off, but I hope that, in an emergency, I'll get by for long enough by putting on my down parka and extra socks and crawling into the sleeping bag inside the bivy sack. I never wear down while hiking; with that heavy pack, I don't need much insulation except when I stop.

I also, in winter, pack an insulated bottle of hot tea, which I put into one of those insulated containers designed for a Nalgene bottle, and then wrap that in my down parka. It's always still hot at the end of the day.

And last: In all seasons, I now carry an extra headlamp (as well as a flashlight) after an experience with an injured hiker. It makes it much easier to deal with an injured hiker after dark if both of you have headlamps. I also carry an extra compass, and that, I can boast, is a matter of foresight. That extra one came in handy once some years ago when I was bushwhacking and my early handheld GPS conked out and I lost the compass that had been in my hand.

 

[DayTrip]

It's humbling and not insulting imo.

I agree 100% and I think that is what gets everyone so worked up. They equate suggesting a mistake was made with a disparaging comment, insulting them, etc.. They died. The mistake is obvious. It doesn't alter my opinion of a person in most cases (barring some wild case of negligence or self destructive behavior we may learn about after the fact in the news). Everyone makes mistakes. I'm evaluating the full measure of the man, not a single moment, when determining how I feel about a person.

I had no idea who this guy was prior to reading the article. After seeing his background, accomplishments, what friends and family had to say about him, etc. I have respect for him. I'm sure he was a lot like most of us here. We all balance plans, gear, conditions, etc and contemplate the implications of our choices when we're out enjoying ourselves. "We've all been there" as they say and can relate to his hobbies and accomplishments versus our own.

What I always wonder about is "that moment" where he was at a point we've probably all been many times before and something led him to make a different decision than most of us would. Why did he do what he did? His reputation and my respect level for him are not in question at all in my mind. I just want to glean some sort of insight into the events that may make me understand "that moment" better and not make the same mistake when and if I find myself in that same predicament. Because I know somewhere deep down inside that potential is in all of us whether we admit it or not.

 

[peakbagger]

Coleman fuel (naptha) has a heat content of 125,000 btus per pound. There is about 2 lbs of water in a liter. To melt and heat snow from 0 F to 100 F (hotter and someone will get burned drinking it) takes 434 Btus per pound (latent heat of fusion is 334 btus/lb plus 1 btu per deg F ) or 868 btus per liter Lets assume the stove weighs 2 pounds. Someone with 3 lbs of stove and fuel can heat up 48 liters of water from snow to hot water. A whole lot more if they can find liquid water. A hiker cant drink that much but they can use the bottles of hot water to stay warm plus add core heat when needed. I would hard pressed to think of three pounds of other gear that will give the same potential to survive a night outdoors. A Western Mountaineering Kodiak 0 degree bag just happens to weigh 3 lbs (and takes up a lot of room) It does not create heat if just delays loss of heat and its going to have a lower rating unless a closed cell phone pad is also in the pack. Folks with hypothermia are already losing the ability to maintain body heat so without additional heat, the sleeping bag will only slow the onset while having a source of heat and someone rational enough to use it can reverse it.

BTW, I carry hot jello in the standard OR bottle covers and have to be careful not to fill them with boiling water as its too hot to drink at lunch on even a cold day. The claim to fame with hot jello is that it will absorb directly into the gut, no digestion needed and is a fast source of glucose that converts to glycogen that is what the bodies muscles need to put out heat.

 

[peakbagger]

I had PM from someone who used to be a very active 4 season hiker and it got me thinking about my assumption on the direction of the hike. I was originally thinking Clockwise. In this case from Lincoln woods, the LW trail and Osseo trail are very sheltered from westerly winds and usually broken out. Flume has near full exposure but just for a short distance. Liberty has a bit more but then the trail heads back into the woods. The stretch from the Liberty Junction to Haystack is usually late to be broken out and drifts in. I think a trail report around that date confirmed it. Many people underestimate this section and get slowed down so when they pop out at Haystack (Falling Water trail junction) they are usually running behind schedule. That stretch between Haystack and Lincoln is somewhat infamous as the ridge is now above Cannon mtn and the ravine to the west funnels in the wind, many a winter hike has been turned around there and couple of folks have died or gotten stranded looking for Falling Waters heading into the woods when they turn around. My guess would be that might be the point where the two other hikers bailed. The problem with that assmption is that is very long way from Guyot and a solo hiker would need to break trail through the somewhat infamous saddle between North Lafayette and Garfield, that gets far less use in the winter and snow drifts in from the ridge line so its deep. After the descent off Garfield it may be sheltered but once the Twinway is encountered its another tough section with ever increasing exposure. Add in the exposed near tree line section past South Twin and I just dont feel a solo hiker in bad conditions could have made it to that point.

If I look at it Counterclockwise it makes a bit more sense. The hike in from Lincoln Woods to Bondcliff is sheltered to the final climb up the rock cliff and rapidly comes out to full exposure to westerly winds, my guess is they were behind schedule due to recent snow pack. and that would be the bail point. In this case a driven solo hiker may or may not have modified their itinerary and decided to just go grab Bond and West Bond at a minimum as these are tough ones to get in January solo. He would know that the trail is broken behind him and would rationalize that its not that far to go grab these two. Unfortunately its full exposure down to the low point of the shoulder between Bond and Bondcliff and the hike up through the dense spruce/fir was probably deep powder. By that time hypothermia was setting in and very quickly once the uncontrolled shivering starts, the hiker is effectively stranded. This make more sense and possible reason for pressing on despite two people bailing as both Bond and West Bond in January are tough mountains to knock off a grid list.

 

[lia1203]

I had PM from someone who used to be a very active 4 season hiker and it got me thinking about my assumption on the direction of the hike. I was originally thinking Clockwise. In this case from Lincoln woods, the LW trail and Osseo trail are very sheltered from westerly winds and usually broken out. Flume has near full exposure but just for a short distance. Liberty has a bit more but then the trail heads back into the woods. The stretch from the Liberty Junction to Haystack is usually late to be broken out and drifts in. I think a trail report around that date confirmed it. Many people underestimate this section and get slowed down so when they pop out at Haystack (Falling Water trail junction) they are usually running behind schedule. That stretch between Haystack and Lincoln is somewhat infamous as the ridge is now above Cannon mtn and the ravine to the west funnels in the wind, many a winter hike has been turned around there and couple of folks have died or gotten stranded looking for Falling Waters heading into the woods when they turn around. My guess would be that might be the point where the two other hikers bailed. The problem with that assmption is that is very long way from Guyot and a solo hiker would need to break trail through the somewhat infamous saddle between North Lafayette and Garfield, that gets far less use in the winter and snow drifts in from the ridge line so its deep. After the descent off Garfield it may be sheltered but once the Twinway is encountered its another tough section with ever increasing exposure. Add in the exposed near tree line section past South Twin and I just dont feel a solo hiker in bad conditions could have made it to that point.

If I look at it Counterclockwise it makes a bit more sense. The hike in from Lincoln Woods to Bondcliff is sheltered to the final climb up the rock cliff and rapidly comes out to full exposure to westerly winds, my guess is they were behind schedule due to recent snow pack. and that would be the bail point. In this case a driven solo hiker may or may not have modified their itinerary and decided to just go grab Bond and West Bond at a minimum as these are tough ones to get in January solo. He would know that the trail is broken behind him and would rationalize that its not that far to go grab these two. Unfortunately its full exposure down to the low point of the shoulder between Bond and Bondcliff and the hike up through the dense spruce/fir was probably deep powder. By that time hypothermia was setting in and very quickly once the uncontrolled shivering starts, the hiker is effectively stranded. This make more sense and possible reason for pressing on despite two people bailing as both Bond and West Bond in January are tough mountains to knock off a grid list.

In an interview with his mom, she mentioned he started before 5am ( 4:00 or 4:30am); this led me believe he was going clockwise. Otherwise the timing of the call doesn't make too much sense. -- I can't remember the exact media who conducted the interview-- boston com or boston globe?

 

[Yury]

AMC used to teach a fairly extreme regime of perpetually zipping/unzipping/taking on and taking off gear to maintain dry insulation but I dont really know anyone who actually is that disciplined

I am that person.
My wife is laughing at me but I prefer being cold rather than sweating while moving.

 

[sierra]

I agree 100% and I think that is what gets everyone so worked up. They equate suggesting a mistake was made with a disparaging comment, insulting them, etc.. They died. The mistake is obvious. It doesn't alter my opinion of a person in most cases (barring some wild case of negligence or self destructive behavior we may learn about after the fact in the news). Everyone makes mistakes. I'm evaluating the full measure of the man, not a single moment, when determining how I feel about a person.

I had no idea who this guy was prior to reading the article. After seeing his background, accomplishments, what friends and family had to say about him, etc. I have respect for him. I'm sure he was a lot like most of us here. We all balance plans, gear, conditions, etc and contemplate the implications of our choices when we're out enjoying ourselves. "We've all been there" as they say and can relate to his hobbies and accomplishments versus our own.

What I always wonder about is "that moment" where he was at a point we've probably all been many times before and something led him to make a different decision than most of us would. Why did he do what he did? His reputation and my respect level for him are not in question at all in my mind. I just want to glean some sort of insight into the events that may make me understand "that moment" better and not make the same mistake when and if I find myself in that same predicament. Because I know somewhere deep down inside that potential is in all of us whether we admit it or not.

You are saying out loud, what most of us think in most of these cases, the answer we rarely get in a fatality. As a soloist my primary goal on hikes is to stay "in control", when I feel or see I might lose that, I simply turn around. I am way past my hero days and frankly, I'm glad.

 

[JoshandBaron]

I had PM from someone who used to be a very active 4 season hiker and it got me thinking about my assumption on the direction of the hike. I was originally thinking Clockwise. In this case from Lincoln woods, the LW trail and Osseo trail are very sheltered from westerly winds and usually broken out. Flume has near full exposure but just for a short distance. Liberty has a bit more but then the trail heads back into the woods. The stretch from the Liberty Junction to Haystack is usually late to be broken out and drifts in. I think a trail report around that date confirmed it. Many people underestimate this section and get slowed down so when they pop out at Haystack (Falling Water trail junction) they are usually running behind schedule. That stretch between Haystack and Lincoln is somewhat infamous as the ridge is now above Cannon mtn and the ravine to the west funnels in the wind, many a winter hike has been turned around there and couple of folks have died or gotten stranded looking for Falling Waters heading into the woods when they turn around. My guess would be that might be the point where the two other hikers bailed. The problem with that assmption is that is very long way from Guyot and a solo hiker would need to break trail through the somewhat infamous saddle between North Lafayette and Garfield, that gets far less use in the winter and snow drifts in from the ridge line so its deep. After the descent off Garfield it may be sheltered but once the Twinway is encountered its another tough section with ever increasing exposure. Add in the exposed near tree line section past South Twin and I just dont feel a solo hiker in bad conditions could have made it to that point.

If I look at it Counterclockwise it makes a bit more sense. The hike in from Lincoln Woods to Bondcliff is sheltered to the final climb up the rock cliff and rapidly comes out to full exposure to westerly winds, my guess is they were behind schedule due to recent snow pack. and that would be the bail point. In this case a driven solo hiker may or may not have modified their itinerary and decided to just go grab Bond and West Bond at a minimum as these are tough ones to get in January solo. He would know that the trail is broken behind him and would rationalize that its not that far to go grab these two. Unfortunately its full exposure down to the low point of the shoulder between Bond and Bondcliff and the hike up through the dense spruce/fir was probably deep powder. By that time hypothermia was setting in and very quickly once the uncontrolled shivering starts, the hiker is effectively stranded. This make more sense and possible reason for pressing on despite two people bailing as both Bond and West Bond in January are tough mountains to knock off a grid list.

There are trip reports from the days prior of people summiting the Bonds from LW. His entire route would have been tracked out until just before where he got stranded if he went CCW.

 

[peakbagger]

I am not sold on the fact that the trail would be fully broken out up high. I have personal experience over the years where overnight winds and flurries can cover over a trail broken out the day before. I was out on Sunday doing a local hike and it was windy, we did an out and back, by the time we were headed down the trail was drifting in. The Valley Way to Madison hut is infamous for that, if can be a sidewalk until somewhere around the Upper Bruin on Valley Way tentsite and then it will drift in nearly full in just about 100 yards or so even though there was no significant snow nearby at lower elevation where I live. Since I tend to hike early I have gotten the "pleasure" of breaking out that section a couple of times. By the time I am headed down, other have gone up and it looks well broken out. (I feel that was one error in Ty Gagne's book about the Kate M incident, he just casually stated that hikers had been that way recently so it would have been broken out, I contend she may have had to break out 3 or 4 feet of blown in powder in this section without snowshoes, a great way to get cold and wet with down gear)