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[Keith Z]

While camping at Sylight Brook before doing Allen this past weekend, the question came up - What would you do if all available tent sites at the area you were going to camp in were all full, with no spots available around, and nothing else established in the area? Luckily, it has not happened to any of us (knock knock), but has it happened to any of you? Would did/would you do?

Keith

 

[Rob S]

This is a really good question because in some cases the decision to camp illegally may be necessary to avoid a dangerous situation of trying to hike many miles further.

Yup, we've been lucky ..... except once. Got to the Osgood Tent site around 4pm or so, in the pouring rain no less, and all the platforms were already taken. This was in 1996, so I forget the exact details, but in this case we were ok because the area is relatively flat and we just walked off into the woods a little ways and found plenty of areas to set up a tent.

Had there been no option to set the tent up there, I'm not sure what we would have done. Since it was getting late and we were exhausted, I guess we would have either walked back aways down the Madison Gulf Trail or maybe along the Osgood Trail.

Our decision to not summit Madison that day proved to be wise. Sometime during that very day, July 20, 1996, the summit of Mount Washington, just a few miles away, recorded the record wind speed for the month of July at 154mph!! During that night, even at the lower elevation of Osgood, we were constantly awakened by the roar of the wind, the snapping of trees, and even a few "thuds" of falling trees. One missed our tent by about twenty feet.

 

[Pete_Hickey]

..... the decision to camp illegally may be necessary to avoid a dangerous situation of trying to hike many miles further.

I guess you don't know Pete Fish. He had people break camp in the middle of the night and hike out.

OTOH, this shows the advantage of a small tent (bivy) or hammock. You need next to no space to spend the night. Note that it is not necessary to eat where you sleep.

 

[Silverback]

While camping at Sylight Brook before doing Allen this past weekend, the question came up - What would you do if all available tent sites at the area you were going to camp in were all full, with no spots available around, and nothing else established in the area? Luckily, it has not happened to any of us (knock knock), but has it happened to any of you? Would did/would you do?

Keith

Funny thing, Keith. As you know we were in the same area and my hiking partner and I had the same question. Is there technically an illegal spot if it is below 3500 feet and in the area of a "trailless peak"? As we approached Skylight Brook, I was looking for alternative places to camp, just in case. Would it have been illegal as long as it was not on private land?

Can anyone help with this question?

 

[rhihn]

I don't recall seeing much before Skylight, (though my mind was more focused on getting to the brook), and most of the hike before the brook is private land. Books recommend doing Allen as an overnight, and yet there are no designated sites. There's also the "150 ft. from water or trail" rule. I assume that the Skylight Brook site, right on the water, is therefore technically illegal as well. There is another similar spot when you first hit Allen Brook, again too close to the water. Of course the pickings are much better during the first 5 miles, but it's private. I guess if all of the "sites" (legal or otherwise) were full, there would be no alternative but to crash into the woods and find or invent a place (there are probably those that would say this is the first thing one should do).

 

[keb]

Well, I can't address the issue of the application of the 150' rule to herd paths (but intuitively I would think it does not apply).

With regard to tent sites and leanto on trails and near water, they are there because it is an obvious area that people will seek to camp in. An official spot is designated to minimize the "hap hazard" spread of unofficial sites in a popular area.

 

[trailbiscuit]

FWIW, a couple years ago we pulled into Guyot fairly early and had no trouble scoring a platform. But, we asked the caretaker, "What happens when you're full?" The jist of his reply was, "We never turn anyone away, we find them a spot." So, at least when an AMC caretaker is involved, it sounds like you'll end up with a spot somewhere.

Without a caretaker, I would rather camp "illegally", than bother the nice SAR folks.

 

[Nonlegit]

I dont think this was really what you were looking for, but before the season starts and we are up in the whites we just sleep in the car in some little picnic area off the kancamangus. Probably 3 cars go by, and they never see you. Get up before 8, and you never have a problem.

 

[ken]

>>I dont think this was really what you were looking for, but before the season starts and we are up in the whites we just sleep in the car in some little picnic area off the kancamangus. Probably 3 cars go by, and they never see you. Get up before 8, and you never have a problem.<<

just cross your fingers and hope that the u.s. forest service parking lot attendants dont come by shining thier flashlights in your windows and see you in there - i had them come to a trailhead parking area about midnite once - they saw me in my sleeping bag and told me to leave - then they sat in thier pickup truck with thier spotlight shining in the back of my blazer till i finally got dressed and left - - they don't have much authority so when they get a chance to exercise it they do - i have never had a real police officer, trooper or sheriffs deputy chase me - they just say "have a good night" when they see you in there.

 

[Pete_Hickey]

Re: Good Question?

I wondered if it was legal when I was there last year. It's well used and I've been told that it is. The reason given was that, at this point, the route (herd path) in question is not considered a trail, merely the well-trodden footsteps of common folks using a common approach to the mountain.

A herd path is considered a trail according to the DEC regulations.

They have a class definition of trails. you wil tend to find it in the appendix of the UMPs. A herd path is a class II trail.

The DEC us USUALLY very specific with their terms. Things like routes, trails, paths hve specific meanings.

 

[rhihn]

We just did Allen last weekend and camped at Skylight Brook. Would Pete Fish have made people camped at Skylight Brook break camp? The sites appear to be as "established" as any marked site, except that it is not marked and is right on the trail and the water. Ditto for the sites at the base of Allen Brook. If the Santanoni site Mavs00 mentions is illegal, then I assume Skylight Brook "site" is, too?

 

[Rik]

Pete or Tim
Do either of you know how this applies to the leash law. I thought I read once that dogs needed to be leashed on DEC marked trails and therefore assumed the dogs could legally be off leash on herd paths. Am I wrong? Thanks in advance for any info.

 

[mavs00]

Santanoni Campsite......

I was just up in the Santanoni's and I scoped that site out again (I stayed there in 2003). The logical place to put tents is on two flat spots just adjacent to the trail (which I did last time), and would "would not comply". However, that area is very broad and there are several flat spots away from the trail that would comply. You could still camp there, you just have to make sure to set up away from the trail.

I wanted to clarify that, as that spot is a very rightous spot. Makes the pack-in a little tougher, but it's real quiet and quaint. Water is five minutes down the trail.

Rik, I would suspect that since herd paths (class II trails) have the same camp regulation as Maintained (class I), then the same leashed pet rules would apply, but I think the honor system is more in play here, as (from my exper.) you'll rarely find a ranger on a herd paths to enforce it.

 

[hikethe115]

Pete Fish

I have heard Pete tell his stories of making people break camp. There is always the emergency situation which you could argue if necessary, but his main goal was protection of the environment. Now he is retired and has passed his 555th climb of Marcy.

 

[Rob S]

Wow ....... 555th climb of Marcy! I did not know that. He sounds like an amazing guy.

My previous post was not intended to justify camping illegally, emergency or otherwise, but rather that some folks (including myself) would camp illegally if their lives were at risk. I'm sure Mr. Fish performed his job function well and never endangered anyone's life.

 

[ALGonquin Bob]

I hiked Allen last October, and I seem to recall that there was an area of "open" woods on state land before reaching Skylight Brook. The site on the herd path, on the edge of Skylight Brook, has room for 2 or 3 tents, but is illegal. I don't know if the DEC folk hike back the 7 miles to check. But it's better to find a spot to camp BEFORE crossing the brook, as the mountain rises immediately after Skylight Brook.

Allen is one of ONLY 40 peaks I need to get my Winter 46!