have you ever hiked to a closed hut expecting it to be open?

[the starchild]

just curious. i think the results might explain the strong reaction to the events that happened.

there are mistakes and we all make them and learn from them.

there are really stupid mistakes we make less often and learn from them.

then there are mistakes like hiking to a hut that is not open in winter conditions.

william

 

[Grumpy]

The better question here is this: "Have you ever planned and gone on a hike based on one or more (optimistic) assumptions or expectations that turned out to be wrong?"

G.

 

[sapblatt]

The overwhelming majority of people on this site are avid hikers...we visit RMC and AMC pages all the time and we talk amongst ourselves.
An overwhelming number of people on the trails are not members of VFTT, do not go to many outdoors sites and just go out in the woods - they often do this with no issues, but oftne situations like the Mount Madison rescue occur too.
I doubt many here have gone to a closed hut...even if it were open, without reservations they would likely have been turned away at that late hour...the presi huts are usually full.

 

[Mike P.]

While I've never hiked to a closed hut expecting it to be open, I did hike up Mt. Greylock (my first Mt. hike on a humid day in jeans & a cotton flannel shirt, as I guy at least I could take the shirt off) not knowing there was a hut/lodge there & that people could stay there overnight. (Back when AMC ran Bascom)

 

[clg898]

The better question here is this: "Have you ever planned and gone on a hike based on one or more (optimistic) assumptions or expectations that turned out to be wrong?"

G.

Did this weekend... I planned to hike Caps Ridge to Jefferson only to find Jefferson Notch Rd. closed. I didn't think to check even though I knew it had snowed earlier this week and we've had tons of rain.

 

[Snowflea]

I voted "no"

...although I WAS hopin' Bascom Lodge would be open last time I was up there, in late April. It wasn't. (And, yes, I know it's not a hut.)



Stinky, who likes RMC "huts" 'cuz they're always open!!

 

[lamerunner]

I also voted no. I think this issue explains some of the reaction to the Madison rescue; not so much anger but absolute incredulity. I suppose to be fair someone with limited experience who did not frequent either this or the AMC web site might not know the hut system ( though they might have asked while at Pinkham checking the weather).

I have cut time very close on trains down to town in Switzerland ( no dear you can't go to the bathroom or we will miss the last train) and on darkness, and undoubtedly have made other mistakes over the years. Experience is a good teacher, and a bit of fitness helps avoid a few problems too.

 

[expat]

The other way around

Early in my hiking career I hiked into Carter Notch late in winter, thinking it would be closed. It was an unexpected, nice surprise, and I took advantage of it.

I make it a point to plan for the worst when it comes to things like that. Tentsites full, bring food for an extra day, if needed, things like that. I don't go overboard, but there are a few things that make sense to plan for.

 

[MadRiver]

As I mentioned on the Madison rescue thread, I encountered a group of hikers heading to Mizpah hut without checking first whether or not reservations were required or whether or not there were spots available, especially on a holiday weekend. I met MEB and her friend on the trail that day and I PMed her to see if they were able to find a spot. She doesn’t recall seeing the group so they must have headed over to Nauman or to the overflow. Although their actions do not constitute being reckless, they certainly didn’t do their homework with respect to the huts.

 

[MadRiver]

Stinky, who likes RMC "huts" 'cuz they're always open!!

I second that!

 

[the starchild]

has anyone heard of the white mountain guide or the AMC

i do not understand all the comments on the various threads about how there are lots of people who do not check or even know about this site, the RMC site or other hiking sites before trips. i don't see what difference that makes. That is NO reason not to do some very simple research before embarking on a big hike in the time of year they were in.

i do not understand why people are making so many excuses for these three people. they seriously messed up. i am glad they are ok.
no, they should not be stoned in the town square, but c'mon y'all! this crossed a few lines.

Before i ever found VFTT, before i bought my computer, before i knew anyone with a computer or learned about the web and what a great resource it could be; i hiked, backpacked and i owned the white mountain guide. i also knew how to use a telephone to ask questions.

i thought this was all common sense. obvious common sense. but i guess not? are the people who read about a hike before the arriving at the trailhead super smart? do people who make sure a hut is open with space available before leaving home gifted? we all make mistakes. i sure have. but this was excessive. i can leave the original event alone, but i can't understand all the excuses of why what they did wasn't that bad.

 

[sapblatt]

I may have been misinterpreted...I am not excusing them...I just think a lot of people go off in the woods with zero knowledge. I am glad they are OK, but they were stupid and they were lucky. Hike up Tuck's in the summer...you will see people in all cotton, no water, no pack, no plan, canvas sneakers etc...we cannot stop it, it is just always going to be the way some people go into things...dumb and unprpeared. No excuse really.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

If the Madison hut HAD been open, in all likelihood those three hikers would have arrived late, very cold, near hypothermic and quite estatic to be in out of the cold. They would have had hot drinks, gotten into warm blankets/sleeping bags, had a hearty breakfast the next day and returned home safe and sound, and a bit wiser.

It's been my experience that the general hiking public is NOT well-informed on which NH huts are open at any point in time and their status (fully open, caretaker only, etc), the difference between AMC and RMC huts, etc.

If I were to create a poll and ask "Is the JBL Lodge open year-round", most of the NH hikers would probably wonder in what part of Quebec you'd find JBL, and what the hell does JBL stand for, anyway?

I visited with a gal working as a hutman(woman) at Galehead hut a couple of summers ago. She was from the ADKs, had lived there all her life, hiked there extensively during HS and college, and until a few months earlier had absolutely no knowledge of the AMC and RMC hut system. She was amazed at how extensive the sytem was and that it had been in existence for so many years, and that she'd lived within a hundred miles of it all her life and had never heard of it.

 

[Grumpy]

...
i do not understand why people are making so many excuses for these three people. they seriously messed up. i am glad they are ok.
no, they should not be stoned in the town square, but c'mon y'all! this crossed a few lines.

...

i thought this was all common sense. obvious common sense. but i guess not? are the people who read about a hike before the arriving at the trailhead super smart? do people who make sure a hut is open with space available before leaving home gifted? we all make mistakes. i sure have. but this was excessive. i can leave the original event alone, but i can't understand all the excuses of why what they did wasn't that bad.

Aha! So you didn't actually start this thread to discover real information, after all. It was just another way to reopen (or perpetuate) discussion of the three hikers who survived a nasty night on Mt. Madison and walked off the hill in the company of some SAR people the next day, right? Only it was a way to frame the discussion so you could continue to assail those people for a mistake that led to the "incident."

What's going on here? It has been well acknowledged that those three hikers made a bad assumption that had both factual and judgment components. What more do you actually want out of this discussion? This is like going to a class reunion just to search out and publicly remind the guy who bobbled what might have been the winning touchdown pass at your senior homecoming game of what a loser he was that day. It has gone far off the path of being an "educational" or analytical discussion; it has taken an outright mean-spirited turn, in my opinion.

G.

 

[giggy]

this is becoming pure comedy now

I have not - I have always been an avid (borderline fanatic!) when it comes to planning things. But this is just me. Even when going on vacation, I can't wing it, reservations have to be made prior, I need to have everything sorted out or start to wig out. I am a bit of a control freak in this regards.

even when beginning hiking, I bought books, researched everything, used to call pinkham and the amc to ask questions, search the web, etc..

But - I have to be honest - I did really "screw up" once. This was underestimating the flume slide trail. One of the first hikes my wife and i did in the whites, was up the flume slide trail. I chose this mt becuase I used to visit the flume when I was a kid. I did get information on it - but went with the saying - if its bad - we can turn back. It turned out not to be a big deal - we both made it - pretty easily. But - it wasn't the best choice for our first hikes in the whites - now was it?? I screwed up. But - had the weather not been perfect, we would have not done it. And we did know enough to up it - and not down it.

But I can also think of many more times in the beginning days, when the weather would hint at getting bad and we would turn back - sometimes it did get bad and other times it didn't - at that time we didn't take chances cuz we were newbies. I would like to think common sense had been present.

 

[Jeff-B]

this is becoming pure comedy now

I AGREE!

I mean, really...., this is a loaded question don't you think?

I refuse to even post my vote!

 

[the starchild]

Aha! So you didn't actually start this thread to discover real information, after all. It was just another way to reopen (or perpetuate) discussion of the three hikers who survived a nasty night on Mt. Madison and walked off the hill in the company of some SAR people the next day, right? Only it was a way to frame the discussion so you could continue to assail those people for a mistake that led to the "incident."
G.

naw dude, not right.

i wanted to "assail" the people making excuses for the three hikers. I wanted to "assail" the people saying its understandable to head into the mountains in winter conditions unprepared!

as i said, no need for a stoning of the three hikers in the town square.
i did feel a need to say, stop the excuses and saying not everyone knows about this website.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

I have not - I have always been an avid (borderline fanatic!) when it comes to planning things. But this is just me. Even when going on vacation, I can't wing it, reservations have to be made prior, I need to have everything sorted out or start to wig out. I am a bit of a control freak in this regards.

I'm just the opposite, giggy. There are some things for which reservations are mandatory (airlines, AMC huts!) but when it comes to hotel/motel reservations, I usually wing it, and I love to travel and take road trips. For me, trying to arrive at a location not too early and not too late is way more stressful than just saying "Hey, I'm getting tired - let's keep our eyes open for a place". Finding a place Friday and Saturday nites during busy seasons is a bit different - usually I figure out about where we'll be by a convenient stopping time by noon of that day, and then call ahead. My wife has a similar mindset so our styles synchronize.

I do try to learn everything I can about a new mountain, however. But, even so - there are usually major things you learn about a mountain even after climbing it a few times that you can't find out beforehand.

 

[David Metsky]

i wanted to "assail" the people making excuses for the three hikers. I wanted to "assail" the people saying its understandable to head into the mountains in winter conditions unprepared!

Since no one said that, you have built up a strawman and now are attempting to knock it down.

Everyone agrees what they did was foolish. Everyone thinks they should have done more research. Everyone (including the three hikers) are thankful to the rescuers who helped them.

The fact is, this happens repeatedly in the Whites and every other hiking area that is close to urban centers. It would be much more useful to examine this incident for what we can learn from it to help teach others and take steps to avoid it in the future.

If you wish to assail people on this site for their opinions, don't. That's not what this site is here for. You can discuss things calmly and rationally and still disagree.

-dave-

 

[cbcbd]

Not in winter... but I thought that some shelters still existed in the Sandwich and they didn't ... so I made a poncho tent for us that night in the trees.