Lost in Thin Air

[Hammerdee]

While hiking Lafayette this past Sunday via Skookumchuck, we ran into a situation that has me a little concerned. We were admiring the view from the Garfield Ridge trail at the junction with the Skook when a pair of hikers came down from Lafayette, stared with confused looks at the Skook trail sign, and said to us, "Le cabin?" They were looking for the Greenleaf Hut, of course, but had taken the wrong trail from the summit. We egntly redirected them back to the summit.

About ten minutes later, another group of three French Canadians did exactly the same thing! That made me wonder -- does that mistake happen a lot? I remember it happening last March with tragic results. Should the trail markers on the Lafayette summit be altered to help prevent this error?

 

[vegematic]

Yeah, that does seem to happen a lot. When I am volunteering up on the Ridge I frequently redirect hikers who are heading toward Garfield even though they think they're going to Greenleaf hut.

The summit cairn was recently moved in the hopes that it would better draw hikers in the direction of the hut...maybe different or additional signage would help...
-vegematic

 

[Jim lombard]

I did that once in cloudy weather on my second time up there. I realized my mistake about 10 minutes into the descent when I pulled my compass out....had a nagging feeling something wasn't quite right.

Those folks must've been more than a bit discouraged when they realized they had to climb back up to the summit.

 

[ChrisB]

Would Bi-Lingual Signage Help?

I always think of Quebecouis as being fully bi-lingual. But maybe that's not true (or fair).

I know some signage around Washington has gone bi-lingual since an avalanche-related accident.

Given the popularity of Franconia Ridge, the same approach could be taken there in deference to our good Canadian neighbors.

Climbing in the Dolomites this summer I noticed that most trail signs were in both Italian and German and I was about the same distance from the Italian/Austrian border as Franconia is from Quebec.


cb

 

[alpinista]

Depending on where you were in the Dolomites, many of those little towns are dominated by German-speaking people versus Italian, because some of the areas were part of Austria, not Italy. I was in Merano (just north of Bolzano) in the Dolomites several years ago and was completely thrown off kilter because my Italian was virtually useless -- and the extent of my German is ordering beer (not a total loss, that, but not exactly fluent!)

 

[David Metsky]

There was an incident on Lions Head several years ago, when some French-Canadian climbers who weren't fluent in English went up the summer route in winter, either ignoring or mis-understanding the trail signs. They were caught in an avalanche and at least one died, IIRC.

Since then there has been an effort to post bi-lingual signs down in Pinkham, I don't know if they have made it up on the trail. While it obviously would be useful, I'm not sure you can rely on signs in that situation. English speakers still get lost and confused up there, presumably they can understand all the signs. I don't think it is worth the effort or impact to make new bi-lingual signs for all the trails. I've been able to follow signs in German and French without too much trouble.

-dave-

 

[Hammerdee]

A Visual Cue?

Maybe the AMC or WMNF should erect a sign 25 feet down the correct trail that has a hut graphic and an arrow pointing straight ahead.

 

[Jim lombard]

Maybe the AMC or WMNF should erect a sign 25 feet down the correct trail that has a hut graphic and an arrow pointing straight ahead.

Not a bad idea except when it's foggy up there you'd never see it.

 

[vegematic]

Re: A Visual Cue?

Maybe the AMC or WMNF should erect a sign 25 feet down the correct trail that has a hut graphic and an arrow pointing straight ahead.

Maybe the sign should be down the INcorrect trail, with one of those red slash symbols through the hut. It isn't the folks on the correct trail that need the sign. Better might be to add a sign to the summit signpost that points in the correct direction.
-veg

 

[trailbiscuit]

I don't think its as much of a language issue as it is a planning issue.

"At the summit of Mt. Lafayette take a left." If they knew that going in, in any language, they wouldn't be lost. If unsure, pull out your compass, like Jim said...assuming you have one and know how to use it.

It bugs me when people blame signage for being lost.

That being said, I would be curious to know what type of signage AMC could post regarding the location of the huts. What are the USFS regulations? Would it be considered advertising?

 

[David Metsky]

Many trail signs already show the distances to the huts and shelters.

-dave-

 

[Hampshire]

Signs!! You've got to be kidding me.

Did Lewis and Clark need 'signs'? For that matter, how did any mountains first ascent party ever reach the summit without 'signs' guiding them? If anything we need less signs and more personal responsibility.

 

[ChrisB]

I thought the signs were quite clear when I was last there.

Ultimately it's probably not an issue of signage, but rather inexperience or carelessness.

From the Laffy summit, the decent down Garfield Ridge is pretty different in nature and feel from going down toward the hut. Yet some folks head North rather than West when leaving the summit in poor visibility.

It is easy for a novice to get disoriented in low/no visibility. If a bit of extra signage will keep a SAR from occuring what the heck. (I like the "No Hut" idea suggested above.)

And, the Franconia Ridge is not exactly the headwaters of the Missouri!

cb

 

[funkyfreddy]

Did Lewis and Clark need 'signs'? For that matter, how did any mountains first ascent party ever reach the summit without 'signs' guiding them? If anything we need less signs and more personal responsibility.

I would agree we need to exercise more common sense and personal responsibility in our lives......

I don't get the connection between climbing Mt. Lafayette and the Lewis and Clark expedition, however....... the comparison seems absurd to me, to say the least! If you're really against signs on a mountain as popular as Lafayette then perhaps we should remove all the signs on the highways leading to them as well......

 

[Hampshire]

Lewis and Clark

I agree, the Lewis and Clark reference was a bit extreme, however, I think my point was understood.

I have no problems with trail signs, blazes, or carins. However, I do not believe people should depend on these for navigation.

 

[MadRiver]

I recently heard two interesting elements concerning blazing in the White Mountains. First, the AMC discourages double blazing (a top & bottom blaze indicating a change in direction) on the trails that they maintain in the Whites. Even though the ATC encourages double blazing, the AMC does not. Apparent they believe people should rely more on their knowledge of compass and map reading than trail markings.

The second point I heard was that someone high up in the Forest Service is advocating eliminating blazing all together on all trails in the White Mountains. Although I cannot personally substantiate the second claim, I can only say that the person who heard this statement is someone I believe.

 

[spencer]

Could someone here who does trailwork with the AMC explain the problem with double blazing? the idea of using a compass on an otherwise blazed trail when it takes a switchback is absurd...

the only problems I see with the double blazes is that when they are done poorly (e.g. vertical instead of offset, etc.) they can lead to people walking in different spots and widening corners.

any thoughts?

spencer

 

[RoySwkr]

The cairns on Franconia Ridge used to be much larger, but in the '70s it was decided to line the trails with rock walls to prevent spread, and much of the material came from downsizing and removing cairns. Particularly in winter, the walls are much less visible - I remember having trouble heading toward Lincoln. What is needed is a few large cairns starting down each trail.

The second point I heard was that someone high up in the Forest Service is advocating eliminating blazing all together on all trails in the White Mountains. Although I cannot personally substantiate the second claim, I can only say that the person who heard this statement is someone I believe.

I can remember when there were almost no paint blazes in the Whites, just ax blazes, and leaders of winter hikes would go hang survey flagging the fall before.

There are many Wilderness areas with no blazing and even no trail signs, and I can believe that this will be extended to the Whites. What that will probably mean is that you will download a GPS track log of your route in advance - just the sort of hitech solution that Wilderness advocates will hate

 

[David Metsky]

First, the AMC discourages double blazing (a top & bottom blaze indicating a change in direction) on the trails that they maintain in the Whites. Even though the ATC encourages double blazing, the AMC does not. Apparent they believe people should rely more on their knowledge of compass and map reading than trail markings.

I've always hated double blazes that indicate which direction a trail should go. For the trails I've built and blazed, I would use a simple double blaze (one directly on top of the other) to indicate that there was a difficult turn or trail junction ahead. Putting one blaze to the side to indicate which direction you should look seems like overkill and also IMO leads to even more confusion as you now have to interpret how far over a blaze is and translate that to the ground. I hope this is referring to that process.

Now, if they really don't want any double blazes, I'd have a problem with that.

-dave-

 

[MadRiver]

From what I could gather from my conversation, the AMC discourages double blazing in any form. I will check further to see if this policy is in writing anywhere in their trail maintenance literature.