Moosilauke-Sarah's 48th-Ravine Lodge?

[Pemi Pete]

>>Stewards, your intentions are good. Admirable, even. But please remember. We are fellow VFTTers. We are fellow hikers. WE GET IT... You are not our shepherds and we are not your sheep.<<


With all due respect, unless you personally know every single person on this board, I don't think we should assume everyone here GETS IT. In my opinion--and many others' on this board--encouraging large crowds on summits is definitely not GETTING IT. Do I detect some elitist sheep who live by a double standard here?

SJ's comment about breaking a record for the most people on the summit was most likely made in jest--he says it was--but that comment touched a nerve in a lot of folks, understandably so. The trouble with being sarcastic, making jokes, etc., is that people don't know when you're (not your) joking and when you're serious.

Chomp has it right IMO.

 

[SherpaKroto]

Hmmm... Valid points all sides, so please, let's not have this deteriorate into a fingerpointing session (it mostly hasn't so far).

Limiting 10 to a trail would be admirable (Seema's 48th did not, but as others had mentioned, it was winter. 3 trails were used. MichaelJ's had folks on most trails on the mountain).

I know how happy I was when 20 showed up on Sandwich for my 100th (summit, not b'day). The largest group on any trail up was 11 (I chose Algonquin up, Smarts down, neither the most popular). Sarah has earned the right to celebrate in this way. I've personally seen Dartmouth groups over 20 strong (not a slam to you Dartmouth folks - just a statement of fact as I saw nothing wrong with their behavior - found it refreshing). This mountain is very well managed (quite a few VFTTers are involved), and by sticking to the carefully laid out paths, environmental impact can be minimized. By June 11th, southwesterly facing trails should be quite dry. IMHO, for a large group, this is a very good choice to hike.

Take it easy on SJ! He's a good guy, a bit enthusiastic, but what's wrong with that? Passion at a young age is inspiring. Meeting him and Sarah has been a pleasure. I hope to hike again with them very soon. I love meeting and hiking with a lot of folks, and they are both keepers in my book.

Maybe we should all learn to finish on Washington... I'd love to see anyone criticize that

 

[sapblatt]

Maybe we should all learn to finish on Washington... I'd love to see anyone criticize that

The summit/zoo of Washington is one to get out of the way...not to rejoice on!

 

[David Metsky]

I agree, there's no need for finger pointing or flaming at other posters. We're all expressing well earned and informed opinions, nothing wrong with that.

In the real world, it's hard to live up to all the principles that we'd like to live by. Hiking in smaller groups is environmentally less impact, but many of us like large celebratory groups to witness our accomplishments. So I'm all in favor of having a party at the summit, it's certainly seen larger groups. Let's not forget there was a hotel up there for 80 years.

I think the idea of going out with the intention of trying to set a record was what pushed the buttons of Spencer and I, we've both spend a lot of time up there building scree walls and repairing damage caused by people wandering off the hardened summit area. But SJ has cleared that up, no concerns on my part anymore. We're all friends here.

As to a place to party afterwards, definately call the Lodge. That might be during Dartmouth reunions which tend to book the place early. Woodstock Station is a great option as Chomp said. There's a BBQ place in Woodstock but it's mainly takeout. Truant's Tavern in Woodstock also has a large room somewhere, but IMO the food is not quite as good. Some friends run the Maple Haven Campground on Rt 112 and could probably set up a BBQ. One of the people who run the place is an accomplished chef. There are a few other campgrounds close by as well.

I can't plan that far ahead, but if I'm in the area then count me in for the hike.

-dave-

 

[twigeater]

Congrats to Sara!
Living with diabetes is not easy, and managing it while hiking has got to be tough. So double congrats!

I agree with others that we should never assume that just because people are members of an internet forum that we all "get it" or even that we interpret what "get it" means in the same way (remember the moose antler thread...)
I can't count the number of times I've been on internet trips where the words "what the bleeping bleep are you doing!!!!" just fell right out of my mouth without me even thinking.

 

[pbernard]

Well said Dave. The Lost River Valley Campground on 112, just outside of Woodstock is clean and nice too. www.lostriver.com

 

[chomp]

I think the idea of going out with the intention of trying to set a record was what pushed the buttons of Spencer and I, ... But SJ has cleared that up, no concerns on my part anymore. We're all friends here.

...

I can't plan that far ahead, but if I'm in the area then count me in for the hike.

ditto - dave said it all

 

[GeorgeFitch]

Your Work is Much Appreciated!

Spencer and I, we've both spend a lot of time up there building scree walls and repairing damage caused by people wandering off the hardened summit area.

Believe me, your work doesn't go unnoticed. Thanks for all you do to preserve one of the finest peaks around.

 

[spencer]

I'm glad this thread has turned around. Nice work, VFTT'ers!

George,

I have to agree with others that just b/c one hikes and cares a lot about hiking doesn't mean everyone knows/cares enough to do the right thing when the opportunity arises.

There are many stewards, such as yourself, who treat LNT as common sense, but I think many still see its principles as a newfangled idea of the greenies or just don't see its importance.

Nevertheless, I still think it's very hard to congregate such a large group and not impact a summit.

Please try even harder...

spencer

 

[Jasonst]

An innocent question...

How does 1 group of 100 "impact" the summit environment more than 10 groups of 10? I am having a hard time grasping this "impact" concept, especially when dealing with a rocky summit. I can understand impact in, say, the Alpine Garden where stuff might get trampled but a rocky summit where people used to sleep, tour etc.

My aim is NOT to inflame, but I guess I just don't "get it".

 

[spencer]

Jason,

the summit is mostly rocky, however when you leave the "boundaries" of the scree walls there is plenty of vegetation between rocks, on top of rocks, etc.

With lots of people in one place at one time, people are physically forced to disperse, meaning even if people try to, they cannot stay within the bounds laid out by trail workers, ecologists, etc.

While I know its hard to think that killing one small plant is making an impact, it really does add up when lots of people (over time, not necessarily at once) visit a treasured area.

As the Waterman's say, "We are loving the mountains to death!"

Fewer people at any given time can more easily avoid areas they are not supposed to be.

That is the ecological reason.

The social reasons are just as big, although more selfish. Many of us (not always me, but sometimes me) seek the hills for solitude or what people consider to be a wilderness experience (let's not debate whether it is or isn't). If I reach a summit with 10, 20, 30, or more people on it, I lose a some sense of the grandeur that I usually seek.

Sometimes we go to the hills to count, sometimes to set records, sometimes for beauty, sometimes for recreation, and sometimes just because. Large groups diminish all but the first two.

The Alpine Garden is just a prettier version of every other alpine zone... It's famous b/c it gets more flowers than many other alpine areas, b/c it has a name, and b/c it's on Washington.

If I could name the flat summit of Moosilauke McKenney's Meadow, I would.

spencer

 

[David Metsky]

100 people together take up a lot of space. People gather in groups and others need to go much wider to get around, often walking on vegitation that they otherwise wouldn't have to. Sometimes the obvious path is blocked, or people want to give others some space, or they don't want to walk through a very large group to get to the summit sign.

There is limited amount (though a lot on Moosilauke) of hardened space on a summit. When groups are smaller, they don't tend to congregate in a single spot. 10 groups of 10 people would have less congestion than one group of 100, all trying to be close to the summit sign when the guest of honor arrives at the top.

It's the same reason that small groups on the trail should give way to large groups, since a small group stepping off the trail does less damage than a large group.

Just my $.02.

-dave-

 

[GeorgeFitch]

Please try even harder...

I was picking up litter ON MOOSILAUKE nine years before you were born. But thanks for the advice, Dad!

 

[spencer]

Nevertheless, I still think it's very hard to congregate such a large group and not impact a summit.

Please try even harder...

What I meant was please try as hard as it takes to congregate without impacting. I wasn't saying you need to try harder than you are doing.

spencer

 

[GeorgeFitch]

Sorry I took it the wrong way. You are right.

 

[Jasonst]

I agree with you guys, and see your points better. Thanks for the reasoned replies.

 

[mavs00]

Just a point from a VFTT bystander not involved...........................

WHAT A REFRESHING THREAD....

What started poorly worded statment, was responded to, re-worded by the initial poster and the discussion ultimately cleanly went to very nice point, without any uglieness.

I know this is a useless post (server hogging), but I cannot tell you how refreshing it is, given recent trends. Thanks SJ, original Sherpa, Dave, Chomp and all the other participants for reminding why I like this place so much.

Good luck to Sarah on completing this journey and may your celebration be special and deserving of her hard work. I cannot tell you how much it meant to share "our" 46th summit with 250 of our closest freinds .

Yeah......... 14 with us and 236 strangers who drove up the toll road to join us. .

Thanks Again

 

[Sherpa John]

ok.. here goes..

1st: I want to thank all of you for posting. Your input is greatly appreciated. I am also glad to see that the negative vibe (typical as of late) was turned around into something more productive. I also want to thank those individuals who sent me e-mails to my personal address and PM's on here. Its the encouragement of others that helps me keep my head high. Yes I knew there would be flak in this thread... and it came from those whom I knew would give it though I do know they meant no harm. Its just frustrating sometimes ya know? Why can;t we all just love one another and be positive?

2nd: As far as JUNE 11th goes. The open invitation to anyone who wishes to join still stands. As the date gets closer I will post in Trips and Events about post hike celebrations. I will also post the trails the ascend Moosilauke and ask at that time that people kind of "sign up" to go on a certain trail to make sure we are spread out. I anticipate a group no larger than 20-25 at this time. Also... while on the summit, we will be especially mindful of the vegetation and such, it has ALWAYS been important to sarah and I and we even spoke of this topic and her 48th previously. Our plan is to hope everyone can find a place NEAR the summit so we can all celebrate in a very enviro-friendly manner. if we notice ANYONE on the outside of the screewalls, then we'll start a pack-up and leave sequence to get everyone dispersed again. In our eyes, it is highly unacceptable... and we do "GET IT".

Actually I get it alot.. err ah... wrong subject

Anyway... as far as this thread goes.. I would again like to re-emphasize as I have in the past that we are all readers of written word. We spend our time "interpreting" others. It is very hard to find the right words from time to time and thats when people jump to conclusions and what not. Please folks, I think it is VERY important that we all take some time to be mindful of our fellow posters and hikers. We are all on different playing fields in terms of intelligence levels and levels at which we comprhend subjects. Lets stop jumping the gun and being critical of one another.

Thanks to Sherpa K's kind words as well, its nice to see a new face in the "stick up for SJ" crowd. lol. And anyone else who wishes to hike with me.. open invitation anytime. I LOVE meeting new people and freaking them out with my randomnes and weird tendacy's. Perhaps thats why everyone I have hiked with, I have hiked with again.

And now.. some shameless plugging:
48 Showings:
Apr. 9th @ Dartmouth College 7pm FREE
Apr. 12th @ Stonehille College 7pm FREE
Apr. 16th @ FTFC Dinner (FILM SHOWING!!) FREE
Apr. 30th @ EMS Concord (Upgrade your gear day) Oooo!
You know you guys wanna come.. so COME! Still plenty of money to be raised oh and it's about that time when I ask...

If anyone sees a Sherpa wearing red gear in the whites this summer, laying dead on the trail from exhaustion.. its me trying to chase a different record... just splash some water on me or better yet.. CPR... now theres a scary visual huh? YOU giving ME CPR?


Seriously folks... thank you.

 

[RGF1]

1st: I want to thank all of you for posting. Your input is greatly appreciated. I am also glad to see that the negative vibe (typical as of late) was turned around into something more productive. I also want to thank those individuals who sent me e-mails to my personal address and PM's on here. Its the encouragement of others that helps me keep my head high. Yes I knew there would be flak in this thread... and it came from those whom I knew would give it though I do know they meant no harm. Its just frustrating sometimes ya know? Why can;t we all just love one another and be positive?

2nd: As far as JUNE 11th goes. The open invitation to anyone who wishes to join still stands. As the date gets closer I will post in Trips and Events about post hike celebrations. I will also post the trails the ascend Moosilauke and ask at that time that people kind of "sign up" to go on a certain trail to make sure we are spread out. I anticipate a group no larger than 20-25 at this time. Also... while on the summit, we will be especially mindful of the vegetation and such, it has ALWAYS been important to sarah and I and we even spoke of this topic and her 48th previously. Our plan is to hope everyone can find a place NEAR the summit so we can all celebrate in a very enviro-friendly manner. if we notice ANYONE on the outside of the screewalls, then we'll start a pack-up and leave sequence to get everyone dispersed again. In our eyes, it is highly unacceptable... and we do "GET IT".

Actually I get it alot.. err ah... wrong subject

Anyway... as far as this thread goes.. I would again like to re-emphasize as I have in the past that we are all readers of written word. We spend our time "interpreting" others. It is very hard to find the right words from time to time and thats when people jump to conclusions and what not. Please folks, I think it is VERY important that we all take some time to be mindful of our fellow posters and hikers. We are all on different playing fields in terms of intelligence levels and levels at which we comprhend subjects. Lets stop jumping the gun and being critical of one another.

Thanks to Sherpa K's kind words as well, its nice to see a new face in the "stick up for SJ" crowd. lol. And anyone else who wishes to hike with me.. open invitation anytime. I LOVE meeting new people and freaking them out with my randomnes and weird tendacy's. Perhaps thats why everyone I have hiked with, I have hiked with again.

And now.. some shameless plugging:
48 Showings:
Apr. 9th @ Dartmouth College 7pm FREE
Apr. 12th @ Stonehille College 7pm FREE
Apr. 16th @ FTFC Dinner (FILM SHOWING!!) FREE
Apr. 30th @ EMS Concord (Upgrade your gear day) Oooo!
You know you guys wanna come.. so COME! Still plenty of money to be raised oh and it's about that time when I ask...

If anyone sees a Sherpa wearing red gear in the whites this summer, laying dead on the trail from exhaustion.. its me trying to chase a different record... just splash some water on me or better yet.. CPR... now theres a scary visual huh? YOU giving ME CPR?


Seriously folks... thank you.

Sherpa John. Putting all the stuff on this thread aside . I just want to that I admire what you are doing for your Girlfriend ! it must mean a lot her and you .
As some one with different disablity I think what you are doing for diabites is admirable and a very good thing. I know you mean well and My hat is off to Sara .
I hope you both have amny adventures or even liststo complete if you desire.
.
May I suggest the 14,000 ft peaks in CO . . They are my mountain home away from home .
I envy you in that you have a girlfriend who hiukes and understands about wanting to go hiking .

 

[Sherpa John]

hmm

Thanks RFG... I have thought of doing rhe 14ers but.. I have a swath of lists and things I wish to do arond here 1st. 100 Highest, 111, NE 4's, NH48 in Winter from all 4 points of the compass solo, NH48 Winter, NH48 the fastest, White Mountain Hut Traverse Record... the lists go on. Its really a lot of fun though and I'm sure I'll make my way to Colorado. I wanna hike with Ralston once. That would be great! thanks for your encouragement.

On a side note... I wanted to put up something sent to me in an e-mail. The following are NOT my words but I find them very vaild to previous conversation. I am taking names out of the text as well to try and avoid fingerpointing.

Here it is: "SJ, There seems to be some sort of legal precedent for 32
or fewer VFFTers summiting Mossilauke at once, if VFFT
approval is assumed in this case: http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4989 (Person A) does not comment in this thread, but Person B) does, and seems to have no criticism of the event.
Photo of the event (41.jpg, scroll pretty far down): http://rbhayes.net/seema.html"

Very interesting indeed. What I posted would be more vaild if I left names in rather than A and B but.. I mean no harm. But what I do wish to add is that the main reasoning behind Seema's trip being "ok" was because it was winter. Point of order... if one looks closely at the pictures, one can see that there is VERY LITTLE snow at all on top of Moose that day and a negative impact could have been imminent.

Another e-mail: "You know what kind of frosts my butt? When Seema was going to finish her 48th peak, a zillion people all chimed in and said they would be there and everybody thought that was cool and nobody said a word about impacting the summit area. But you make an equally valid request for some company on top and suddenly all the (Person A's) and their sychophants chime in and say it's a bad idea. Gotta love it!"

Another Valid point and thanks again to all those who sent me e-mails and encourahing thoughts. Sorry if this re-ignites discussion but again.. I felt these points very alid to the conversation and thought they should be said in anonymity. Also.. I appologize to seema for using the memory of her ascent in this way.