Outer Layer(s) for winter

[dentonfabrics]

Hi,

I recently realized that it's time to update my winter hiking gear. I've got everything all picked out and paid for except for my upper body stuff. As a base layer, I chose Icebreaker merino wool top from EMS because I sweat like a mule and I hear merino wool wicks best. But I'm stumped on what to buy for an outer layer, and I'm unsure if I need a mid-layer. Can I get some suggestions from the winter experts out there on how to stay comfortable?

Consider, I wont be hiking in extreme conditions. I'd rather stay away from Gore-Tex as I need something breathable and something that protects me from the wind. I probably wont be going above treeline and I wont be going out in extreme conditions (below zero, or during rain or blizzards).

Any recommendations?


thanks
bob

 

[Kevin Rooney]

For a mid-layer go with 200 weight fleece. Doesn't really matter whose brand - they all work pretty much the same (Malden Mills makes most of the stuff anyway). I prefer a pullover because it's slightly warmer than the jacket (no zipper). Throw in a shortsleeve polypro shirt from summer as well - sometimes a long-sleeve plus short-sleeve first layer are quite warm. Surprisingly, putting the short-sleeve OVER the long sleeve seems to be warmer.

As for outer layer - you're right, you don't need Goretex or similar. Goretex and similar are good for liquid precip - not an issue in winter because it's frozen stuff. You might even be able to get by with summer-weight, especially if you're not doing anything heroic.

 

[cbcbd]

If you get warm easily and don't want anything that hardcore, I'd suggest getting a Primaloft filled insulation layer with a DWR (Durable water repellent) shell. It'll keep you warm, it'll breathe better than a Gore-tex shell, and it's much easier to brush off snow from a DWR shell than fleece - this should work for you in most conditions as long as it's not raining or too wet.

Something like this:
http://www.mountainhardwear.com/Product.aspx?top=1&prod=1098&cat=24&viewAll=False

Fleece is all right, but I find it just gets wet from the landing snow melting with my body heat.

 

[trailbiscuit]

If you sweat a lot and crank up the body heat, you might want to think about more thinner layers. Maybe a primaloft or fleece vest and a soft shell. This will give you options as conditions dictate.

 

[Neil]

I wear THIS more than any other piece of clothing. 4 seasons. It's my winter shell, my summer raincoat, my bug repellent all in one 13oz. package. Amazingly tough, too.

 

[DougPaul]

For a mid-layer go with 200 weight fleece. Doesn't really matter whose brand - they all work pretty much the same (Malden Mills makes most of the stuff anyway). I prefer a pullover because it's slightly warmer than the jacket (no zipper).

Just to throw in the counter-argument, I prefer a zipper because it allows me a significant range of ventilation control without stopping. Take your choice.

As for outer layer - you're right, you don't need Goretex or similar. Goretex and similar are good for liquid precip - not an issue in winter because it's frozen stuff.

Except when it is raining...

During the last winter gathering, we had heavy rain followed by a cold front which brought high winds and a 40F temp drop. Had we been camping out in the woods, we would have had wet gear at temps ~0F.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

I've got everything all picked out and paid for except for my upper body stuff. As a base layer, I chose Icebreaker merino wool top from EMS because I sweat like a mule and I hear merino wool wicks best.

Both wool and polyester wick, but wool can store more moisture in the fiber which could be a problem when you stop. I suggest you try both (thinnest weight available) and see which works best for you. Some people who tend to sweat heavily carry a spare base layer in case the first one gets too wet.

Mid layer:
As others have suggested, a medium weight fleece jacket might be a good choice. A fleece vest might also work well--use either or both as needed. (Kevin's suggestion of carrying both long and short sleeve bottom layers is a good one--the two together are surprisingly warm. And there are certainly times when the short sleeve shirt alone is the best choice for me.)

Outer layer:
I use a water-proof breathable (hard) shell. Sometimes on me, sometimes in my pack. Bad weather sometimes sneaks up on you, or snow falls off the trees and foliage on you. A good shell can keep them at bay.

I want the capability to stay safe in case of an unexpected extended stop (eg in case of an accident). I would generally end up wearing all my mid-layers plus my shell under such conditions. And perhaps a down jacket (typ under the shell).

Softshells, can be nice in nice to moderate conditions--they breathe well and resist wind and water to a degree. But they can wet through and will not stop higher winds. Thus if you use one, I suggest that you also carry a hard shell. (And a dry softshell can be used as an insulation layer under a hard shell if need be.)

Doug

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Just to throw in the counter-argument, I prefer a zipper because it allows me a significant range of ventilation control without stopping. Take your choice.

That's a good point, Doug. Personally, when I get that warm I just take the durn thing off, but everyone's metabolism is different.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Another perspective from a heavy sweater

I am a heavy sweater. I have not hiked in the winter at all (yet), but I have been XC (skate), snow shoeing on groomed trails, and cycling in the winter for 12+ years now. I haven't found a single garment system that will keep me warm while staying dry. My only choices are to change my shirt, or simply keep moving. Once last year I skied at WV when it was 12 degrees. My buddy wanted to go into the yurt to warm up. When we came out, every part of me that was damp froze within 3 minutes. Big mistake to stop! Lucky it was only 3K or so back to the touring center.

My best luck has been from a wicking tank-style T top, with a medium wicking jersey over the top. If extra cold or windy, a vest is helpful. I've had days where I've sweat profusely and found the front of my torso quite red from cold, yet I've not felt cold at all. The most important thing for me is to bring multiple pairs of gloves and hats so I can change them as they get soaked. With cycling, the average wind speed is much higher then with XC as you are travelling much faster.

During three-season hiking, I bring one (or two!) spare shirts, usually one to wear on the summit, and maybe one to wear on the way down. Sometimes I can let the ascent shirt dry on a rock in the sun while eating lunch and hanging out.

I'm interested in solutions if anyone has one. Preferrably not costing me $200 either ;-)

Tim

 

[deadpoint]

softshell tops/bottoms are the best action/outer layers. all you really need under then are light weight undies.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I always wear cycling tights (or leg warmers) when cycling in the winter, and most of the time when XC. I have a nice pair of Swix zip-on wind pants for when it's really cold. These are not designed to resist abrasion (from what? The wind? )

The trick for me is finding that magic combo that allows maximum drying to occur -- 'cause I'm going to sweat if my heart rate goes much over resting. Unfortunately, that generally precludes good wind protection.

Oh, and I too prefer a zipper for maximum ventilation options. Zip it up on the downs and hang it open on the climbs.

Tim

 

[DougPaul]

Once last year I skied at WV when it was 12 degrees. My buddy wanted to go into the yurt to warm up. When we came out, every part of me that was damp froze within 3 minutes. Big mistake to stop!

I also produce a lot of heat when active.

One thing that I avoid is going inside (huts etc). My body is still producing heat and my insulation is adjusted to match the outside cold. So going inside is a quick way to overheat and get my insulation wet. Better to just keep moving.

Doug

 

[Lawn Sale]

For the temps you mentioned, I use a wicking base layer and either a very light fleece or my softshell, depending on the temp and winds. I always bring my hard shell though, because like Doug mentioned, it can get nasty in a hurry. If I'm running warm, I'll unzip the outer layer and/or take it completely off if it's too warm. It's also why I prefer hiking in the cold, like sub 15°F, it's easier to regulate your heat so you don't sweat, or not that much.

 

[Woody]

One word: Scholler!

 

[John H Swanson]

Hmm? Since you don't go out in extreme conditions (really cold, above treeline, etc) and you sweat alot, why do you need an outer layer? I hike 95% of the time in the conditions you describe in only a base layer.

Then, when that is not enough - Schoeler, is the best breathable and "dry snow" resistant material I've found. I prefer a hood to be flipped up when pushing thru snow laden branches. So I have a Cloudveil ice flow jacket that I really like.

Though I'm much more impressed in my Mammut Champ pants....but that's another story.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Hmm? Since you don't go out in extreme conditions (really cold, above treeline, etc) and you sweat alot, why do you need an outer layer?

Well, one minute you're hot going up a hill, and the next you get wind chill going down. My heart rate on an uphill will be in the upper 170s / lower 180s, far and above anything I get while hiking. Since stopping is undesireable (the goal being to get in a 3-4 hour workout -- think cross training for bicycle racing), the best you can hope for is to zip or unzip. Descending for 3 to 5km when it's below 20 degrees produces an artificial wind chill - which is where the vest comes in handy.

To be clear - when I say two layers, I mean a tank-top style wicking / base layer, and a thin cycling / hiking "jersey", i.e., like the EMS Techwick long-sleeve jersey. We're not talking fleece here, or a soft shell.

And of course, if one must stop for more then an equipment adjustment or a bio-break, one gets cold rather quickly.

I do opt for the lightest amount of clothing I think will get me by, and put on / take off a hat to help retain or vent heat as appropriate. But even if I went in shorts and a (wicking) T-shirt, I would still sweat and still be soaked -- only much colder.

Tim

 

[deadpoint]

Though I'm much more impressed in my Mammut Champ pants....but that's another story.

The champ pants use the schoeller extreme dry skin material, which is the same used in the MEC Ferrata pant/jacket. they are basicly the same pant but the ferrata's are like $70 less.

 

[John H Swanson]

The champ pants use the schoeller extreme dry skin material, which is the same used in the MEC Ferrata pant/jacket. they are basicly the same pant but the ferrata's are like $70 less.

Thanks, Some of the reasons I like the champ pants are:

the ergo or articulated design of the knee,
the available sizes include more than just s,m,l - they actually make pants that fit me
The reinforced inner calves - I have gone without gaiters without problems
and the side pocket. though I would prefer a zip closure to the velcro flap​

I will look at the Ferrata too.

 

[Jkrew81]

http://www.psychovertical.com/?thebestsoftshell

I have been using Marmmot driclime top and bottoms under my softshells for years with success, and this article helps to explain why. If you also check out Mark Twights Extreme Alpinism book, it helps to back up the theories of this article.

While hardshells are essential emergency equipment, I find that mine rarely leaves my pack. Instead, in the worst winter mtn conditions I use the Driclime windshirt over a wool t-shirt, a thin pataguch R.5 fleece, an Ibex softshell with a primaloft vest and a super thin windshirt. It is totally breathable, warm and comfortable. Best part is it allows you to alter your layers throughout the day to stay as warm or cool as you need.

 

[sapblatt]

wear close to the same all year...polypro shirt long instead of short in winter...I wear shorts down to about 20-25 degrees and then I wear snowboard pants that I got real cheap when it is colder or there is a lot of snow around. I wear fleece for a mid layer and a marmot precip for an outer. I will often carry an extra layer of fleece as well as a primaloft jacket just in case I get stuck or take a long break. Usually carry at least two hats as well as a face mask, sunglasses and goggles if going above treeline.
Glove liners, fleece gloves and over mitts too...rarely need it all, but would not want to need them and not have them.