Please help me choose a new camera . . . THANKS.

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sli74

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I am ready to get a new camera. I have had a number of Canons and love them so I am leaning towards getting a Canon but am open to other suggestions also. Here is what I need:

The best pictures I can get
Lightweight/ultralight
Good battery life
LCD and optical viewfinder
7 MP or better
$300 MAX but $200 would be even better

Give me your choices and why . . . I appreciate all your insight.
Thanks,

sli74
 
I have a Canon A720, but I haven’t yet taken it out on any real hikes, so I can’t say how well it will compare with the Kodak DX4530 I’ve been using since 2003.

The Canon has Image Stabilization — which doesn’t work as perfectly as I had thought/hoped it would, so it may not really be an improvement over the Kodak (which was starting to get on my nerves with all the pictures ruined by blur), but we’ll see when I get it in the woods — and options for either shutter- or aperture-priority, as well as the auto and program modes. That’s more than the Kodak offers, which is auto-only.

The Kodak sits in the chest of drawers, while I carry the Canon with me much of the time.

The Canon isn’t a single-lens reflex, just a little point-and-shoot. Smaller and probably lighter than the Kodak, too. I used to carry an Olympus SLR (the good ol’ reliable OM-1) and two or three additional lenses, but got tired of having to go through the trouble of hauling it all out whenever I wanted to take a picture. I ruined thre Olympus in 2002 anyway, and got the Kodak digital. These little cameras can just hang in a little bag on my hipbelt and are easy to whip out.

I don’t suppose that’s much help.
 
Canon A570 IS is 7.2MP, meets all your other requirements (LCD is not a very high-res one, optical viewfinder shows 80% of the image) for about $170. It's light, uses 2 AA batteries, lasts many hikes on Lion batteries.

I am very pleased with this purchase.

Tim
 
I have the A720IS. Uses 2 AA's which I like since my GPS and headlamp also use AA's. I like it a LOT. You can see the quality of the pics in some recent hiking albums: Cannon, Washington, Wildcats.

What's nice is that since the body's a little bigger to support the AA's, the lens is a little bigger, too, which means better optics. It's not heavy, but definitely not as small as one of the SD models. The IS works well, especially when zoomed (optically), and the face-finder-focus mode, while a bit creepy, does a good job. Color is very good with AWB, and I find myself using the "shade" setting to enrichen shots in the trees or snowy/cloudy days. LCD is huge and bright.

Only caveats are that the wide angle could be wider (it's 35mm equivalent), and flash photos take a long time to recycle with NiMh rechargeables.

The A570IS is the other reigning model with the 720IS, but I'm not sure of the exact differences.

If you want to go small with an SD model, and don't mind the custom battery, Una_dogger's got an SD1000 so look at her pics from any of her recent TR's for how those come out. It's tiny and she loves it. It's very no-frills and easy to use.
 
A570IS vs. A720IS.

As you already discovered, the differences are minimal: most important (and where the extra money goes) is the better lens on the 720IS: not only has it more reach (6x zoom, 35mm-210mm as opposed to 4x, 35mm-135mm) but the lens is also a little faster on the long(er) end: the 570IS has a F2.6-F5.5 lens, the 720IS has a F2.8-F4.8 lens.

Also the 570 is 7.1 megapixel, the 720 is 8.

Just weighed my 720 with batteries and card and it was 9.1oz.
 
If you want manual controls, you can't go wrong with either the Canon A570 or A720. They are, IMO, the best small, full function cameras on the market right now.

If you want to go for an ultracompact, the Canon SD850 or the SD800 (if you want wide angle) are good, as is the Sony W80. They are great little cameras but are purely P&S.

It's harder to find small cameras with optical viewfinders. :(

Image Stabilization isn't a cure all. It allows you to keep the camera steady for longer exposures, which allow you take pictures in lower light. If your subject is moving, this will cause it to be blurry as it will move while the shutter is open. It's best for inanimate subjects. Canon has one of the best IS systems in the industry, so I suspect it is working as designed. You may have to adjust your shooting expectations to take best advantage of it.
 
Oh yeah, the bigger body for the bigger batteries fits much better in my bigger hands. In all honesty, I liked the 'heft' of the A70 (4 AAs) even better but the A570 is a much better camera and fits in the camera carrying case / backpack much better. It's a bit difficult to operate in gloves, but not impossibly so.

Tim
 
How great is the shutter "lag time" -- the delay between pressing the release and the actual exposure -- on the cameras that have been recommended here?

That is a real issue for me. Shutter lag time is a big part of what has kept me out of the digital compact point-and-shoot market to date.

G.
 
The A570 is an improvement over the A70, which at the time was ahead of a lot of other cameras.

There is still a slight delay, which definitely impacts action shots, like blowing out birthday candles.

Here is a comparison I found using Google. I cannot vouch for the scientific methodologies used here:

http://www.cameras.co.uk/html/shutter-lag-comparisons.cfm

It lists the A570 at 0.33 seconds.

Tim
 
Unless you buy a dSLR you will have some noticeable shutter lag. Current cameras are better then they were 2 years ago, but there's still some lag. However, you can do a few things to eliminate the worst of it.

- pre-focus the camera by pushing the shutter release half way. This will eliminate the bulk of the lag
- put the camera in manual or program mode and set some of the settings (ISO, WB, shutter speed, aperture) in advance. On pure P&S cameras you won't be able to set shutter speed and aperture but the others help some

Most cameras will be slower acquire focus in low light. A AF-lamp helps a lot, most but not all cameras have these. Finally, there are still some dogs on the market, read the reviews to find which are especially slow to focus and fire.
 
If the 720 has enough light to focus, and doesn't have to think too hard about focusing, it's very fast. Sometimes it wonders what I'm trying to focus on (AiAF or face-finder mode) and takes a moment. I can set it to center-spot focus and it's nearly instantaneous.
 
Grumpy said:
How great is the shutter "lag time" -- the delay between pressing the release and the actual exposure -- on the cameras that have been recommended here?
A570: http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/A570IS/A570ISA6.HTM
A720: http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/A720IS/A720ISA6.HTM
(about .5-.6 sec for either using auto focus, <.1 sec prefocused)

The reviewers at Imaging Resource seem to measure the various lag times for a variety of cameras. Look under the performance section. http://www.imaging-resource.com/MFR1.HTM

That is a real issue for me. Shutter lag time is a big part of what has kept me out of the digital compact point-and-shoot market to date.
The modern P&Ses are small enough that one can carry one in one's pocket/pack in situations where one might not want to carry a DSLR. They may not have the performance of a DSLR, but you cannot take any pic if you don't have a camera on you...

Ken Rockwell states that some of his most popular images have been taken with a P&S--he seems to always have one with him... http://www.kenrockwell.com/

I tried to take a pic of a sitting cat with an A75 P&S (~1 sec lag)--the cat got up and started to walk away and I had to pan to keep it in frame...

FWIW, I set all my cameras to center focus (so I can determine the focus point)--it also seems to reduce the shutter lag.

Doug
 
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Thanks for the link to the list of shutter lag times for digital P&S cameras.

My standard for comparison is my everyday workhorse Nikon D2Hs digital SLR, which has a lag time of 0.037 sec. It is virtually instantaneous in response. The backup Nikon D1H digital SLR is significantly slower in response than the D2Hs, but still much faster than any of the digital P&S cameras in the list.

Even the D2Hs sometimes has noticeable lag in any of its "focus priority" modes -- it won't release the shutter until focus is achieved. I seldom use the camera that way, preferring to take my chances with the "release priority" mode.

I think excessive shutter lag contributes not only to missed "peak" moments, but also to lack of sharpness resulting from camera movement during the eventual exposure. Shutter lag time in the realm of 0.2 to 0.35 sec -- nearly 5.5X - 10X that of my primary SLR -- is quite excessive, to my way of thinking.

It appears this aspect of digital camera function is improving, but still has a long way to go in the P&S market.

G.
 
sli74 said:
I am ready to get a new camera. I have had a number of Canons and love them so I am leaning towards getting a Canon but am open to other suggestions also. Here is what I need:

The best pictures I can get
Lightweight/ultralight
Good battery life
LCD and optical viewfinder
7 MP or better
$300 MAX but $200 would be even better

Give me your choices and why . . . I appreciate all your insight.
Thanks,

sli74

I just bought a Sony 7.2 MP for my wife for Christmas. Its the super thin body so it fits anywhere. I got it at Best Buy for 179. Takes great pictures!
 
Grumpy said:
I think excessive shutter lag contributes not only to missed "peak" moments, but also to lack of sharpness resulting from camera movement during the eventual exposure. Shutter lag time in the realm of 0.2 to 0.35 sec -- nearly 5.5X - 10X that of my primary SLR -- is quite excessive, to my way of thinking.
You don't say what you are shooting--P&Ses may never be fast enough for fast moving sports*. But I'd argue that they are plenty fast enough for static scenery. And unposed people might be a bit awkward with current .5 sec autofocus lags (but should mostly be ok with prefocus).

As for camera movement, I try to train myself to hold steady until after the shutter has fired, not just until I press the button. And of course, image stabilization helps here.

* As I understand it, a lot of fast-moving sports shots are taken in burst mode and the peak moment is selected after-the-fact.

Doug
 
Let's not confuse shutter lag with autofocus speed (or lack of it). When I refer to shutter lag, I am referring to what rifle shooters call "lock time," the brief span of time between triggering the release and when the shutter actually opens (or the time between when the trigger is pulled far enough to release the firing pin hammer and when the gun actually fires).

I take the list that Tim linked us to to be actual lag time, not including time taken by autofocus mechanisms searching for focus.

Autofocus speed varies considerably. I have several AF lenses that operate from a servo motor in the camera, and others that operate with their own independent motor. The latter are much quicker in action.

I do shoot a lot of sports. I also shoot a lot of feature and musical and theatrical performance stuff. Some of this is pretty dynamic, some is not. During a shoot I constantly focus and refocus as the scene in front of me progresses. This is the drill with or without autofocus systems. When I see a good expression forming or a composition setting up, or prime action developing, I want to shoot and not miss it. Excessive shutter lag time frustrates me.

Excessive shutter lag time was, in fact, one of my prime complaints about the Nikon D1H SLR, which is a lot faster than any of the P&S cameras on the list Tim linked us to. Nikon must have listened to people like me, because the D2 camera series (which replaced the D1H) reduced the shutter lag time to levels commensurate with my old Nikon F5 film camera, which was blazing fast.

As for the sports shooters popping off in bursts and then choosing from a series ... . Yep, I do that sometimes, too, at a speed in the 8-9 frames per second range. I sure couldn't do that with shutter lag time that exceeds a fourth of a second.

It is true that a lot of fine pictures are made with digital point-and-shoot cameras. I only raised the shutter lag issue because it is important to me and my way of working. Call me an old dog that really doesn't want to learn the particular trick of dealing with extended lag time on exposures. As long as my back holds out (and that's an open question, 'cause it's "iffy") I guess I'll stick with an SLR for hiking (or go sans camera).

When the shutter lag gap closes sufficiently I'll lay out some bucks for a good P&S to take hiking. I am hopeful this will happen ere long.

G.

P.S. (especially to Seema): Please accept my apologies for contributing to thread drift here. I got my answer, and now have said more than my due piece on the shutter lag issue, and will try to be a good boy from here on out.
 
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David Metsky said:
If you want manual controls, you can't go wrong with either the Canon A570 or A720. They are, IMO, the best small, full function cameras on the market right now.

If you want to go for an ultracompact, the Canon SD850 or the SD800 (if you want wide angle) are good


Agree with Dave. A720 for manual controls, SD800 for size. I give props to the SD800 over the 850 because of the wide angle lens, which is very nice for hiking landscapes. If you are going to go for the SD800 then get one soon because they stopped making it. Check out Carm's pix for samples from the SD800.

- darren
 
darren said:
Agree with Dave. A720 for manual controls, SD800 for size. I give props to the SD800 over the 850 because of the wide angle lens, which is very nice for hiking landscapes.
Same here--IMO, the A570 IS, A720 IS, and SD800 IS were on my shortlist. I got the SD800 because of the wide angle lens (28mm eFL, the others are ~35mm eFL), but other than the lack of the wide angle lens would have chosen one of the two A*** cameras.

(I really wanted the A570 with the SD800 lens, but Canon doesn't offer it...)

Doug
 
Grumpy said:
Let's not confuse shutter lag with autofocus speed (or lack of it). When I refer to shutter lag, I am referring to what rifle shooters call "lock time," the brief span of time between triggering the release and when the shutter actually opens (or the time between when the trigger is pulled far enough to release the firing pin hammer and when the gun actually fires).

I take the list that Tim linked us to to be actual lag time, not including time taken by autofocus mechanisms searching for focus.
Tim's page doesn't say it, but it looks to me like it lists lag with autofocus times. (Lag time for the A570 is listed as .33 sec.)

The tables in the the Imaging Resource reviews explicitly break out the different times-total lag of autofocus+shutter (.54--.68 sec for the A570) and lag of shutter only (after prefocus) (.075 sec for the A570).

It looks to me as if most lag times include autofocus etc--total time from button press to image capture*. (But this could be a function of what sources one tends to read...)

* Explicitly stated by Imaging Resource.

Note: The autofocus time varies with zoom setting and initial focus (info which is not always given in the tables), so different numbers from different sources is not surprising. (Also with different lenses on changeable lens cameras.) One would expect less variation in prefocused lag time--it should depend only on the camera body electronics

FWIW, the Imaging Resource numbers for the Nikon D2H are: .049--0.456 sec (depending on the lens) with autofocus, .046 sec with manual focus, and .045 sec with prefocus. http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D2H/D2HA7.HTM

FWIW2 (since a bunch of us have the Canon XTi): .20 sec with autofocus and .105 sec with prefocus.

grumpy said:
When the shutter lag gap closes sufficiently I'll lay out some bucks for a good P&S to take hiking. I am hopeful this will happen ere long.
I turned up my nose at the film P&Ses, but have been pleasantly surprised at how capable some of the modern digital P&Ses are. The A75 came out around 5/2004 and has a total lag time of .8-1.0 sec and the A720 (out around 11/2007) has a total lag time of .5-.6 sec so times are improving.

Doug
 
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Grumpy said:
As for the sports shooters popping off in bursts and then choosing from a series ... . Yep, I do that sometimes, too, at a speed in the 8-9 frames per second range. I sure couldn't do that with shutter lag time that exceeds a fourth of a second.
Many P&S digitals have burst modes of 2+ fps, which they achieve by locking focus on the first shot. Clearly a big chunk of the lag time is spent focusing. And there's a brand new Casio out that takes shots at 60fps. That should cover any need for fast shooting.
When the shutter lag gap closes sufficiently I'll lay out some bucks for a good P&S to take hiking.
How difficult is it to sneak up on a mountain? :)
 
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