Sad News For Everest (Chinese building a road to base camp)

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Pete_Hickey said:
When yo have billions of them, a life has much less value. Reality.

I understand the relevance of that reality check, sadly. With both China and nearby India on Tier 2 Watchlist for TIH -- and the Olympics connected-in-name with the road building, perhaps there will be a strong Human Rights focus on the construction as it progresses.

This project seems like such a bad thing all around.

Wouldn't the Olympic torch make its way to EBC with more dignity if it followed the same trade routes that have been existence for eons?

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/82902.pdf
 
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well if a road is going in, they should toss a few pubs up there, some mini golf, chinese all you can eat take out and of course - nudie bars.

excess is best :eek:
 
giggy said:
... chinese all you can eat take out ...
I think it's just called "food" there.


RoySwkr said:
I thought you could already drive to Tibet base camp, at least with army trucks.
I read it's considered "Jeepable" so military type vehicles can use it now.


"Outcrys" have begun. Environmental and Border Security issues are both mentioned.
 
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Hmmmmm... building it is one thing.... Maintaining it is quite a different story (as anyone who hase been up Whiteface recently can attest to).
I would also be suspect to the quality of the road (if it is for real) between both then engineering of the grades, creation of the base and quality/thickness of the blacktop (or macadam) that is used.
 
The Road to Everest

I have mixed feelings about this. Of course, my first would be NO keep it as remote and wild as possible. And also, my negativitey towards China, it's politics, un-humanitarian behavior, major contributor to pollution and over population also plays into my initial opinion. If I remove "who" is building the road out of my feelings; I still have mixed feelings about it but less so. First, progress is going to happen and it was just a matter of time before a paved road was put in to some point at Everest. There was a time you had to hike all the way in; now you can be flown in or helicoptered in to get much closer. Folks who previosly couldn't get near Everest are now being guided up it. Many have never even had crampons on before! I think much of what is happening to the whole Everest experience is tragic. The garbage that is everywhere - not somehting they show you in those nice Nat'l Geographic specials. Sure they've had a few clean-up expeditions but it's still there and getting worse. I've read about how nasty the "latrine" areas have become; human waste all over frozen in place for eternity. The money hungry guiding services who will take anyone on an expdeitioin if they have the bucks. And i guess it's getting worse each year as more and more unqualified folks with fat wallets want to indulge their fantasies. I imagine the only impetus to the Chinese building this road is to enable news media etc access to follow the relay of the olympic torch as much as possible. Obviously, from their standpoint they are going to want as much exposure as possible. Ideally, it would be great if once the olympics are over, they tear up the road. But I'm pretty darn sure that won't happen. So yes, it would be just a matter of time, with better and easier access that commercialism comes in; accomodations, restaurants, shops etc. That could be tragic, especially if you have cheesy posts like McDonalds, t-shirt shops, tourist traps. HOwever if the people of the area were able to have shops and keep everything more traditionally based that would be much better. So I guess it just depends on who is in control of what happens to the land and I would hope the local people would have a voice and do the right thing. (like here; sometimes town folk vote out the chains etc bec they want to keep things small and more rural). The only good thing I can see from having a better road is that there would no longer be excuses that hauling out all the trash is too difficult. I've never been to Everest and probably never will but it's one of my favorite reads and have probably read well over 30 books on it and from each I can gleen info to provide a pretty good picture of what it is really like there. In the end I think most everyone would agree that to keep it as wild and remote as possible would be best as that's the draw to her anyway and I'm sure the great wise lady Chomolungma would agree.
 
shadowcat said:
Folks who previosly couldn't get near Everest are now being guided up it. Many have never even had crampons on before!

I highly, HIGHLY doubt any legitimate guide service would endanger their clients by allowing someone with no crampon experience on Mount Everest. Got any examples?

shadowcat said:
Ideally, it would be great if once the olympics are over, they tear up the road.

Tear up the road?? Then there would be piles of gravel all over the place, meaning it would be worse than when the whole project started!

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, obviously, but who are we to be outraged at a project that will do nothing but help the local economy and improve transportation in a far corner of the world? To assume that cottage industries will pop up along the route to base camp - where a couple hundred people at most travel each year (remember, this is the lesser-traveled approach on the Tibetan side of the mountain) - is a bit far-fetched.
So this plan will marginally affect our idealized impressions of a faraway place - who cares! We should be more outraged about things that are happening closer to home that we can actually make a difference about.
 
My data, is old but...

I went to the base of Mt Everest on the Tibetan side in 1987 in a "gypsy cab", a 1950s vintage Land Rover. It was doable even then, although it involved very rough travel over several 18,000 foot passes, and several deep-river crossings (no bridges in the Rongbuk Valley, at least then).

There was a rough cart-track from the main Lhasa-Kathmandu highway (which itself wasn't much of a highway then). There was, however, a steady stream of Land Cruiser traffic even then -- several vehicles loaded with "tourists" a day, at least. I know this because at one point, we became hopeless mired in the river for a day-plus, so we got to know the locals in one village very well. Back then, only the (fool)hardy stayed the night up at Rongbuk or anywhere up the valley, so most of those trucks were one-day turn-arounds. We did spend the night at Rongbuk Monastery, and it was an amazing experience all around, but certainly not for the feint of heart or weak of lung.

MichaelJ, the altitude change from the Lhasa highway to Rongbuk Monastery was on the order of 3,000 feet, though again, you had to go up over at least one 18,000 foot pass after you left the main highway. From Rongbuk Monastery, it was another mile or so (though not a lot of elevation gain) to the bottom of the Rongbuk Glacier, which is the location of the Tibetan-side base camp.

Even given modern China's propensity for huge public works projects, I don't think I would expect a Chinese interstate highway any time soon. My guess (not data-based) is that they'd be 'improving' the cart-track and adding bridge crossings, which based on my experience, at least, are crucial for safety. The actual "roadbed" in 1987 was essentially an opportunistic trail along the riverbed and threaded along through several small villages of a handful of houses. The route over the mountain pass was similarly opportunistic, and kind of clung to the ridge with a staggering number of switchbacks. Yaks make fair road engineers, as it turns out.

<OK, now I have read the CBN link which I should have done first. Blacktop. Undulating guardrails. Yikes. Gonna be a powerful stack of altitude-sick sunburned white people up there. We brought down a well-prepared, healthy trekker with moderate edema when we left Rongbuk. He probably would have died if we hadn't. Notwithstanding how I feel about the Chinese treatment of the Tibetans -- not good -- this is really a bad idea from a "tourism" perspective.>
 
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reply to albee

first i guess you'll just have to take my word for it because i have read in more then one book by professional climbers their stories of guides and their clients who had no mountianeering experience and yes, some who had never had crampons on before. if i knew i'd needed the proof guess i would have written down the titles. but if you don't believe me i suppose you can start reading for yourself.

as far as tearing up the road; my point on that came from what some (and not enough) loggers are doing once they log a forest. one of the complaints is when they log, irregardless of methods used, is that the roads they put in allow easy access for folks who otherwise would not be able to get back into that area. atvs etc, more vehicles etc etc etc. again, sorry i wish i could remember the names of the companies here in the us that do that but there are also some on the rain forest. once they have logged they bulldoze or something and let nature take back the roads. that's all i was saying. sorry i didn't take it a step further and realize yes there would be a mess. it was just a thought. of course it wasn't realistic but just wishful thinking that maybe mankind can sometimes undo the damages they done. after all they have built huge buildings etc for prev olympics that are often torn down afterwards.

so bang bang you got me ok. next time i'll be sure to think things out better before i speak too quickly.
 
albee said:
I highly, HIGHLY doubt any legitimate guide service would endanger their clients by allowing someone with no crampon experience on Mount Everest. Got any examples?
I believe it is none other than the ever-popular Into thin air which describes clients not knowing how to use crampons and one client in particular whose boots and crampons were not even compatible.

albee said:
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, obviously, but who are we to be outraged at a project that will do nothing but help the local economy and improve transportation in a far corner of the world?
We also need to consider what is improvement and progress for other countries. Who are we to say that their lives will improve because of this. It's only going to make smaller villages more "developed". Those poor indigenous people who live lives so much simpler than ours, if only we could help them...

albee said:
We should be more outraged about things that are happening closer to home that we can actually make a difference about.
This I completely agree with! Who cares about a road in China they want to dig new mines here! :eek:

Progress is a dangerous word.
 
I believe the goran kropp book also detailed a couple of people who had never been on snow and ice - I want to say it was a south african team in 1996.

not sure how valid this is though.
 
sleeping bear said:
I believe it is none other than the ever-popular Into thin air which describes clients not knowing how to use crampons and one client in particular whose boots and crampons were not even compatible.

One of the reasons Into Thin Air was written was to bring to light the questionable judgement that some guides had during that era of commercial expeditions. Much has been learned in the last 10 years that has improved this industry. All of the guide services I have researched recently require you to submit a "climbing resume". More than three times as many people are safely gaining the summit now than when the book took place in 1996.

By the way, the climber you mention, Stuart Hutchinson, was experienced... he had simply purchased new boots for the expedition that were too big for the step-in crampons that he normally used.

sleeping bear said:
We also need to consider what is improvement and progress for other countries. Who are we to say that their lives will improve because of this. It's only going to make smaller villages more "developed". Those poor indigenous people who live lives so much simpler than ours, if only we could help them...

I absolutely agree with your point here. But grant me this: We aren't the ones to judge whether this enterprise is good or bad. One of the reasons I took such a hard stance in this thread is that it annoys me when people take reactionary positions on issues rather than considering both perspectives. Consider this: When the original poster wrote "This is sickening.", did that influence your opinion on the subject?

Here are some more articles if you would like other opinions on the topic:

http://www.kansascity.com/451/story/158589.html
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/new...erest-road-plan/2007/06/20/1182019199728.html
 
albee said:
One of the reasons Into Thin Air was written was to bring to light the questionable judgement that some guides had during that era of commercial expeditions. Much has been learned in the last 10 years that has improved this industry. All of the guide services I have researched recently require you to submit a "climbing resume". More than three times as many people are safely gaining the summit now than when the book took place in 1996.

By the way, the climber you mention, Stuart Hutchinson, was experienced... he had simply purchased new boots for the expedition that were too big for the step-in crampons that he normally used...

Regarding paragraph 1 above: After reading about what Russell Bryce did on Everest last year, I wouldn't consider today's guides' judgement to be above reproach.

Regarding paragraph 2 above: Wouldn't an experienced climber make sure his crampons fit his new boots before tackling the tallest mountain this side of Neptune?
 
I never said all guide services are infallible. I stated that in the 10 years since Into Thin Air came out, they haven't been taking just anyone up there. This is in response to the person that claimed "many people that are being guided up Everest have never even worn crampons before"... That is a baseless claim and this is not an accurate example. Sandy Pittman, on the other hand... :rolleyes:

Regarding "paragraph 2": Of course he should have checked this, but mistakes happen. It could happen to anyone, especially someone that is busy preparing for a trip of this magnitude. Don't tell me you've never forgotten one detail while packing for a trip...
 
It's interesting reading the foreign press articles for the different view points of India, Tibet and China. So far the only group that's psyched are the Chinese.

Here's a Non sequitur of little interest to anyone: On our honeymoon we were informed we were staying in the "Dali Lama" room. When we asked why it was called that we learned that the The Dali Lama himself; the flowing robes, the grace, bald... striking... anyway, had stayed there :D .

So I got that going for me, which is nice...
 
Baseless Claims

re: "I never said all guide services are infallible. I stated that in the 10 years since Into Thin Air came out, they haven't been taking just anyone up there. This is in response to the person that claimed "many people that are being guided up Everest have never even worn crampons before"... That is a baseless claim and this is not an accurate example."

I was really trying hard not to get dragged down in the mudd but if Mr Albee is going to be so quick to call others "claims" baseless" I would like to know where do you get your knowledge from? Have you been there? You know every guide service personnally? How many summit attempts have you made? Or are you just buddies with all the climbers? How many documentaries or biographies have you read on Everest? I am definitely NOT claiming to be an expert but my statement is not baseless. I didn't just pull it out of my ars. I'm sorry you find what i said so hard to believe and i wish right now that i had a photographic memory so i could just rip off the author, title, page, date etc of every example to support what i said; but, unfortunately for me - it ain't going to happen. the one thing that mucks up these forums down is when people have to try and drag someone down just becuase they don't believe or agree with what others say. I will stick by my claim on the fact that there are guides who will, to this day, take people up Everest that should not be on the mountain. You want to choose not to believe that, fine keep those rose colored glasses on. It's a fact. Until then I choose to believe the personal accounts of renowned mountaineers who have actually been there vs you. That's my choice, and i'm stickin to it. I will be more then happy to give you an awesome list of books to read that I'm sure you will enjoy and find very imformative. Please let me know if you are interested.
 
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