From time to time I see scrap marks on rocks on a trail. In the past someone wrote they were from crampons. But I don't think so. I think they maybe be from the ski/hiking poles. They didn't seem to be an issue. However When I did the Baldface loop they seemed to be everywhere and it was very hard not to notice them. They even marked up flat sections of rock. Sometimes over 20 of these white scraps on a rock in one place. Does anyone know for sure what they are from. Sorry I don't have any pictures of it. I use a hiking stick or sticks if my knee is hurting so I could not test it out with a hiking ski pole. If they are from these poles I bet a different tip would prevent it from happening. Maybe a wooden tip that wouldn't fall apart easily or pollute like a rubber or a plastic one. I would use the poles but I hate the noise they make so I stay with the stick (for now) but I know how important they are to protecting and helping the knees.
Scrap marks on trail rock.
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sapblatt
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They sell rubber tips that can go over the carbide/metal tips.
cbcbd
Well-known member
These marks are common on the popular trails and areas. They are from the carbide tips which are much tougher than most rocks you'll encounter. You can get rubber ends for the tips that would eliminate the damage and noise.
Some rubber ends available at EMS:
http://www.ems.com/products/product...avigation/subcategory.jsp&bmUID=1129307864639
http://www.ems.com/products/product...avigation/subcategory.jsp&bmUID=1129307864751
http://www.ems.com/products/product...avigation/subcategory.jsp&bmUID=1129307864810
From my experience using and loving trekking poles (it IS an art form and can save your legs and let you hike faster if you let it become an extension of your body), it's really all about placement that will determine if you scrape rocks or not. I use them on rocks all the time but always making sure that they are close to perpendicular to the surface I'm resting against. By paying attention like this I rarely scrape rocks.
Some rubber ends available at EMS:
http://www.ems.com/products/product...avigation/subcategory.jsp&bmUID=1129307864639
http://www.ems.com/products/product...avigation/subcategory.jsp&bmUID=1129307864751
http://www.ems.com/products/product...avigation/subcategory.jsp&bmUID=1129307864810
From my experience using and loving trekking poles (it IS an art form and can save your legs and let you hike faster if you let it become an extension of your body), it's really all about placement that will determine if you scrape rocks or not. I use them on rocks all the time but always making sure that they are close to perpendicular to the surface I'm resting against. By paying attention like this I rarely scrape rocks.
cbcbd
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It's very common in the Whites and I see them everywhere in the popular alpine peaks of the ADKs. I think the use of non-carbide tips is a ways off.
The "default" tip sold on the poles are always carbide, most people hitting popular trails could care less about LNT practices, and most of the terrain around NE is not rocks, so...
The "default" tip sold on the poles are always carbide, most people hitting popular trails could care less about LNT practices, and most of the terrain around NE is not rocks, so...
ExploreTheEast
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carole said:
Probably hiking poles. I don't think the most talented snowmobiler in the world could ride up the ledges on South Baldface!
Carole, Thanks I did not even think of snowmobiles ... yes what I saw in the flat rock areas on top could have been caused by snowmobiles on a little bit of snow and ice. The scraps where much more (looked like someone drag a steel rake across them) than what you normally see. The way up the normal loop on baldface Is too steep for snowmobiles but there are a lot of other ways up there for them (from the west). Good idea. I haven't riden them in years so I don't know for sure if they could cause this... but it could be.
rhihn
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Though I'm not denying that hiking poles can cause damage, I'm wondering why crampons seem to be dismissed out of hand as an additional culprit?
ExploreTheEast said:
This was my question. Were the markings on the ledges going up South Baldface or another area where snowmobilers could access the area, say from the southern end of Slippery Brook trail? I don't even know if snowmobile access is allowable around there.
Mike P.
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Sorry, I'm a crampon believer.
If you don't want to scar the peaks, try it at home on a stone wall or rocks nearby:
See how hard you'd have to push on your poles to make a mark. Borrow an enemy's new crampons or try it with old ones, why purposely use your good crampons on bare rock.
Or Try getting your poles to stand upright in your neighbors driveway, how hard was it? then try jumping down 18" wearing your enemy's new crampons on your neighbor's driveway. Which penetrated more? Don't expect an invite to the neighbors next Christmas party either.)
Look at where the marks are on the trails, right in the middle, see how far you walk with your poles in the middle of the trail = between your legs
how much more pressure does a 180 - 240 pound hiker with/+ pack put on 12 points on his feet on an angled rock on 1/2" ice when the ice shifts of cracks & he (or she but she probably won't way 240 unless she is carrying her partner ) starts slipping.
You'd have arms like Popeye if you put that much pressure on your arms with each pole plant, or your hiking without legs.
When the ice is real thick you don't penetrate it, when it's 1/4 to 1/2 inch like you fidn early & late in the season or where rocks get some sun, you get multiple points reaching bare rock
If you don't want to scar the peaks, try it at home on a stone wall or rocks nearby:
See how hard you'd have to push on your poles to make a mark. Borrow an enemy's new crampons or try it with old ones, why purposely use your good crampons on bare rock.
Or Try getting your poles to stand upright in your neighbors driveway, how hard was it? then try jumping down 18" wearing your enemy's new crampons on your neighbor's driveway. Which penetrated more? Don't expect an invite to the neighbors next Christmas party either.)
Look at where the marks are on the trails, right in the middle, see how far you walk with your poles in the middle of the trail = between your legs
how much more pressure does a 180 - 240 pound hiker with/+ pack put on 12 points on his feet on an angled rock on 1/2" ice when the ice shifts of cracks & he (or she but she probably won't way 240 unless she is carrying her partner
) starts slipping.You'd have arms like Popeye if you put that much pressure on your arms with each pole plant, or your hiking without legs.
When the ice is real thick you don't penetrate it, when it's 1/4 to 1/2 inch like you fidn early & late in the season or where rocks get some sun, you get multiple points reaching bare rock
chuck said:
I have seen the scraps of many snowmobiles accessing areas that would seem unlikely, but with snowcover there are those determined to give it a try and then they hit rocks, try to go around, or back up and try again. They gouge the rocks in wider scrapes then a pole or crampon would do.
I remember seeing a few going up the steep stuff after the shelter but it was really on South and North .... I mostly remember it being very frequent on flat rock before and after North and on the way to Eagle Crag.
Crampons I can see on angled rock but I just didn't think crampons would make that many scratches on flat rock. I wish I took photos.
Crampons I can see on angled rock but I just didn't think crampons would make that many scratches on flat rock. I wish I took photos.
ALGonquin Bob
Well-known member
Since poles are normally planted to the side of a trail, as opposed to the center, I believe most of the marks are from crampons. Regardless, those scrape marks are on a trail and represent concentrated usage, just as eroded trails show intense use. We "sacrifice" the trail to preserve the surrounding mountain sides. The scrapes don't bother me.
Hikers do make an impact - we don't need to blame snowmobiles for this.
Hikers do make an impact - we don't need to blame snowmobiles for this.
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AIG good point. It was just something that really jumped out at me on that loop. It was really in the open flat rock areas where it would be hard to say what is the middle of the trail. Land of Many uses.... maybe it was a guy on snowmobile, selling crampons and wooden hiking sticks with carbide tips.
Next time I will take photos.
Thanks
Next time I will take photos.
Thanks
Tom Rankin
Well-known member
AlG said:
I'd bet that snowshoes are responsible for many of these marks as well. Crampons are not worn as much as snowshoes. And I don't skid when I'm using my crampons.
ALGonquin Bob
Well-known member
I also refer to the points on snowshoes as crampons, so both types of metal traction aids are responsible.
Another vote for snowshoes/crampons. These marks were there long before hiking poles with carbide tips were in wide use. You can often see a series of them together, as if a crampon slide and all 10/12 points made marks.
It's tough to make a serious mark with a hiking pole, you just don't put that much weight on your arms.
-dave-
It's tough to make a serious mark with a hiking pole, you just don't put that much weight on your arms.
-dave-
Pete_Hickey
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Both
Sometimes it is obvious that they were made by crampons. When they are on a rock..a high step... and at the edge. One would not plant a pole there, but one would step there to climb up the rock.
On the other hand, if you look in narrower sections of the trail, and find them on the edges, they were made by poles.
Don't look in a place where you can't be sure of the cause. By looking at a few places where you can tell the cause with almost certainty, you can ttll that it is both. You just can't tell which is the major cause.
I live by Gatineau Park. In the winter, there is cross country skiing on the roads. In the spring, it is amazing how dug up the road is, in a pair of lines, on either side of where the ski tracks are. I know that skiers push harder, and are more likely to use poles than hikers.
Note also, that this is a relatively new phenomena. It was not there before the increase in popularity of both winter hiking, and carbide tipped poles
rhihn said:
Sometimes it is obvious that they were made by crampons. When they are on a rock..a high step... and at the edge. One would not plant a pole there, but one would step there to climb up the rock.
On the other hand, if you look in narrower sections of the trail, and find them on the edges, they were made by poles.
Don't look in a place where you can't be sure of the cause. By looking at a few places where you can tell the cause with almost certainty, you can ttll that it is both. You just can't tell which is the major cause.
I live by Gatineau Park. In the winter, there is cross country skiing on the roads. In the spring, it is amazing how dug up the road is, in a pair of lines, on either side of where the ski tracks are. I know that skiers push harder, and are more likely to use poles than hikers.
Note also, that this is a relatively new phenomena. It was not there before the increase in popularity of both winter hiking, and carbide tipped poles
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