slow learner / no sweating in winter

[Squintyken]

A broad topic I'm wondering about is: are there any other slow learners out there (willing to 'fess up)?

the specific example I have is: "do not sweat in winter..."

to learn this lesson took many "bites at the apple".

#1 I vaguely noticed on quite a few winter hikes that I became sweaty while hiking uphill with a pack, and then mysteriously chilly shortly after I stopped. hmm...

#2 I may have read some advice about removing layers as needed in various places such as "Mountaineering freedom of the hills" and these forums, a few times.

#3 I probably heard it on a few group hikes, including an AMC hike or two.

#4 I definitely recall Mohammed describing his own initial stubbornness to removing layers on winter hikes during the recent AMC Boston HB winter evening lectures.

somewhere along the line I began to wonder:
how many layers exactly do I remove anyway?
hike in just thermal top and bottoms?
if it's raining would one layer be bare-chested under goretex shell (gross)?

#5 on two recent AMC volunteer led backpacks I saw up close exactly what others do, including this discussion on a Mt Isolation trip:

"yes, I often winter hike without any gloves, because otherwise I just end up with wet gloves"

at that moment, "light dawned on marblehead". I began to hike without gloves, and my hands were not cold, at least not after a minute or two uphill. and of course during rest stops i immediately layer-up.

then on the next hike i really got daring and started out with only a thermal (polypro) top when I would normally have had a goretex shell also.

and i lived to tell the tale! and comfortably so!

of course, once i began to get wind exposure, the shell came back on while moving... but there was this moment of "so that's what they meant!", like a new level of fine-tuning my own micro-environment...

Possible reasons for my stubbornness:
A) i'd hiked so many times before I felt i must know it all by now (e.g completing NE100, 36 winter NH4K)
B) somehow being outside without a jacket felt...wrong. (thanks Mom for yelling at me for not putting on a jacket so many times, i guess?!)

Fortunate antedotes to my stubborness:
1) slowly changing to a life / hiking is a continuing education mindset (instead of "I already graduated, class of ##" / static view).
2) continuing to read books and articles
3) hiking with others and directly observing and asking questions
4) periodically taking a class

anyone else want to share a behavior or habit you recently changed?

 

[DougPaul]

The rule of thumb is quite simple:
You take off enough insulation to dump enough excess heat that you don't sweat. (In fact the advice is often to stay a bit on the cool side below timberline.)

Over-insulating when active is a common rookie mistake.

On my first winter overnight (as part of my college outing club winter school), we met up with a party of 3 or 4 wearing expedition down jackets, jeans, and white (Antarctic) mouse boots. They zoomed by us several times, we passed them as they were leaning up against trees dripping sweat into the snow. We ended up rescuing them that night...

Doug

 

[expat]

My own slow learning

My own slow learning generally applies to accepting that it's time to purchase new gear. I used an excellent external frame backpack on all trips at all times of the year for about 25 years, until finally purchasing an internal frame pack. I love it!

Although I adopted fleece more quickly, I only replaced my woolen counterparts as they wore out. Later, I began proactively replacing wool with fleece, and I'm happier (and lighter!) for it.

 

[cbcbd]

It's all about getting to know your body.
Even on below freezing weather, if there's an uphill and I'm going at my own clip I'm sweating regardless of how little I wear - so I usually end up wearing just my baselayer and then when I stop I just marvel at all the steam that comes off my body as I melt all the snow that dared touch me

DougP's tip is right on - dress a little cool below treeline, a little warmer above.

 

[sardog1]

The rule of thumb is quite simple:
You take off enough insulation to dump enough excess heat that you don't sweat. (In fact the advice is often to stay a bit on the cool side below timberline.)

The corollary rule is to start the hike with only enough clothing on your body that you'll feel a little chilled standing around at the trailhead and for the first few minutes on the trail. As you start working your muscles on the trail, you'll warm up. It's sometimes a tough thing for people who "always feel cold" to accept. If they don't accept it, they often perspire early, get wet and then start chillin'.

And the invention of pit zips ranks up there with the wheel, IMO.

 

[cbcbd]

Although I adopted fleece more quickly, I only replaced my woolen counterparts as they wore out. Later, I began proactively replacing wool with fleece, and I'm happier (and lighter!) for it.

The next progression is from fleece to a synthetic pile mid-layer
Doesn't get as wet as easier as fleece, packs down smaller, more windproof (usually), usually lighter, and much easier to brush snow off of - therefore easier to keep dry.

 

[daxs]

I had a hard time adjusting to winter hiking. Just ask the folks I have hiked with during the winter. I have learned slowly what works for me. It took me about 3 years. I think I am still learning. Be cold in the parking lot before the hike. If you are comfortable, you will begin to sweat as soon as you move. I often take off my hat or use a "sombrero" hat so I can vent heat. I will stop, alot if necessary, to layer and de-layer in an attempt to avoid sweating. I find I can use light bottom layers are be very comfortable as long as I can adjust my upper layers, hat and gloves/mittens. I try to stay hydrated because that seems to help me temp regulation. I tend to carry a variety of clothing/gloves/mittens and hats. Prob more than the average folks but I least I feel prepared.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I've noted before on more than one occasion that I sweat pretty heavily...

If you're not cool/cold starting out, you will be too hot once you get going.

Holds true for hiking, biking and skiing (XC). Not true for fishing, however

Tim

 

[daxs]

How true. No matter how hot it is at the dock, i am always cold once the boat is out a few miles on the ocean. But, its still fun to deep sea fish..

 

[Rols]

My hands are one of my problem areas. Of late on a cold day I start with wool gloves inside shells. As soon as I warm up the shells are removed. This allows for better breathing and dumps some temperature. The shells are easily rolled up and tucked inside my jacket and can be added back at any time. If my hands are not sufficiently warm inside the shells, I carry thick wool mittens to replace the wool gloves inside the liners. If my hands are very warm, I go to wearing only liners (if very cold I wear the liners inside the wool mittens). Carrying shells, wool gloves, wool mittens, and liners I have options to keep my hands comfortable in a variety of Winter conditions.

 

[Lawn Sale]

I also have a method for hiking, and it only became apparent when my friends mentioned it yesterday. I start out with a base layer, which obiously never comes off, the softshell, and a hardshell layer. On my hands are liners then overmitts, and I have a windproof hat I wear when I'm a little chilled and a set of ear warmers when I'm warmer. If it's truly cold then I add another layer, but this is for general hiking above 0°.

When hiking I try and stay a little on the cool side as it minimizes the buildup of moisture. Yesterday I put on/took off layers numerous times as the terrain and level of exertion changed a lot. My friends didn't change layers a lot, but in short order they learned that to stay comfortable you had to. On the summit while eating lunch I use my down jacket, but only hike in it if I'm not exerting much effort.

Each person is different, and I think the layers/levels of comfort only come with experience hiking, and through trial and error.

 

[una_dogger]

I try to start out a tad cold, if I feel warm standing in the parking lot, I'm wearing too many layers to start with.

After about five to ten minutes onto the trail, I'm usually taking a "layer break".

I try to put a layer on when I take a break, so I don't chill off, and also try to drink water just before I begin to hike again, because I often feel really cold right after I drink.

My hands are the coldest part of me, but warm up quickly after a few minutes in mitts. I wear liners and windstopper fleece over "glittens" and have an even bigger pair of super insulated overmitts for really tough conditions.

My butt is always cold in winter.

 

[Andrew]

M any of my friends like to change to a dry baselayer shirt when they reach the end point of heaviest exertion, typically a summit. Bare skin exposed to cold wind makes me crindge, and is truly a terrible sight to behold- and should be spared of your friends!
I prefer an extended break just below treeline while sipping a hot beverage from a thermos, while waiting for any moisture to dry out of my layers. It seems to do well to maintain the core temp while some evaporitive cooling is occuring. Even if I feel warm when I stop, I usually put on an extra layer anyways- as sometimes if I wait to cool down, it's a little too late.

Softshells really are a miracle fabric that can bridge those times when there is enough exposure that you don't want to be in just a baselayer- due to snow, wind, or snow dropping from branches, but you are exerting yourself to the sweating point.

If the situation allows, slow, lazy hiking in rapt wonderment works best.

 

[DougPaul]

M any of my friends like to change to a dry baselayer shirt when they reach the end point of heaviest exertion, typically a summit. Bare skin exposed to cold wind makes me crindge, and is truly a terrible sight to behold- and should be spared of your friends!

Its not that bad, so long as you are warm/hot when you do it (don't wait until you are cool/cold...), there isn't too much wind, and you work quickly.

Doug

 

[Stan]

day hike layering

My starting 'uniform' is the least I can bare ... moan ... and depends upon temp, precipitation (if any), exposure and how strenuous the hike will be. Usually it's long john tops, a wool shirt or fleece sweatshirt and, perhaps, one of three vests (fleece, windbreak or down). I seldom need to stop to remove layers. Occasionally I will change the long john top ... brrrrrr ... usually at the turn around point and the longest break. Additonal potential layers are a heavier fleece jacket and/or goretex jacket (North Face denali and mountain light respectively).

Long john bottoms are a staple along with either nylon trousers or goretex pants. On the harshest of days with exposure, I'll add fleece bottoms under the goretex. I have rarely added or removed bottom layers.

Ahhh, true confessions ... hope no one steals my identity with this information.

 

[Squintyken]

temperature regulation - and sleep on it

from replies I see in common: multiple layers, more than one option to wear, and do not wait until you are uncomfortable to do something about it.

following that idea of being proactive and doing something to regulate your temperature better - a tricky one is while backpacking:
I often wake up in my down bag perhaps a little cold, or just my feet are cold, or my face is damp, etc. and I may feel like just rolling over and going back to sleep ( "it will go away / I'm sleepy" )

but that's the time when it can be really hard to force myself to make the necessary change before trying to go back to sleep: put on a sweater or put on another pair of socks, or take off the face mask and just wear a hat instead...

"the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak"

I avoid assuming that a problem will go away in winter. I strongly suspect that problems will get worse in winter.

as some AMC leaders have shared from their first aid classes: treat the hot spot Before it becomes a blister, etc.

if you don't mind, a minor re-interpretation of Lawn Sale's signature "live outside your comfort zone" - it seems that to survive extreme conditions, while we do travel outside our comfort zone - yet we bring it with us: down, fleece, goretex, thermarest, stove, tent, cookies, down booties, etc.

depending on conditions and events, what is sometimes considered "comfort" or "luxury" may become necessary for survival.

 

[dentonfabrics]

I can relate to a lot of what's been written here so far. I've found that winter hiking is something you grow into and continues to be a learning experience, much more so than 3-season hikes. Personally, I sweat like Moses Malone so I've always been hesitant to hike in the cold. But I'm learning to manage it. I found myself hiking up Pierce this weeking wearing only a longsleeve coolmax on top. I've also come to grips with stopping every so often so that I can layer up/down.

Now if only I can come up with a system to keep my gatorade from freezing!


bob

 

[Seeker]

Personally, I can't stand being cold in the parking lot. So I dress warmly, wait for my hiking cohorts to be ready, dump my largest layer, then start up. Usually, after 5 to 10 minutes on the trail, I lose another layer. Another 10 minutes, another layer. Then I am usually good for the rest of the "up" as I am usually just in my polypro. My hat is KEY for dumping heat. Off it comes when I am hot, on it goes as SOON as we stop. If the rest stop is a long one, then on goes the soft shell or fleece jacket. The side zips on my softshell pants are always open on the up.

Did I mention I "heart" softshell pants? I resisted for a long time, but these babies have made their way into my favorite gear of all time list.

 

[una_dogger]

Did I mention I "heart" softshell pants?

I got a pair this winter,too.
They rock!

 

[Lawn Sale]

I also have a set of Shoeller softshell pants I picked up this winter (for $6 at Goodwill ), and love them. I used to do fine with the thermals and some nylon hiking pants, but these take the extremes so much better and are very comfortable. They are a tad large though, as my waistline is still shrinking, but I'll make due until they don't fit anymore.