Summit Generators Turned OFF

[walker]

For the first time in many years the diesel generator(s) atop Mt. Washington have been shut off. Can you hear the silence?

Short clip on the turn over from gen power to "Valley Power"

Just a little FYI

WalkSafe...Walker

 

[MichaelJ]

Unfortunately, the clip "has been removed by the user."

That said, this is a good thing and was discussed here recently.

 

[Mongoose]

It seems odd that they made this change during winter. What if something went wrong.

 

[DougPaul]

It seems odd that they made this change during winter. What if something went wrong.

Just because they switched over doesn't mean that the generator has been disabled. I'll bet they can switch back if need be.

Doug

 

[Kevin Judy and Emma]

Generators

Oh yes, the generators will always be here. Eventually they will be removed from their current location to a new shed just outside the main entrance at the top of the Nelson Crag Trail. The entrance will be returned to it's original state.

The generators run on kerosene, not diesel. Diesel would freeze in the sub-zero temps here on the mountain. They will always be in place as a back-up, and have been used today, in fact. WHOM had a power problem assumed to be from the change over to grid power. It turned out to not be caused by this, but we briefly switched over to the generators to test things out.

The big question now is, will it be cheaper to run on grid power than trucking thousands of gallons of kerosene to the summit?

KDT

 

[Mongoose]

Are the power lines underground? I'm assuming they are because of the wind.

 

[NH_Mtn_Hiker]

...The generators run on kerosene, not diesel. Diesel would freeze in the sub-zero temps here on the mountain...

JFYI:

Diesel fuel (D-1), Kerosene (K-1), and Commercial Jet Fuel (JP-A) are exactly the same thing with the exception of additives such as dyes, and the taxes applied to them. The freeze point for all three is about -40F to -50F and can be lowered using additives.

They use kerosene instead of diesel fuel because it's cheaper, no transportation tax. It's always about money isn't it?

 

[doc99]

Video of powerline project

The power lines are underground... Mike Pelchat, Mt. Washington's State Park Manager, has been posting videos of the construction... they're pretty cool...

Link to YouTube

 

[NewHampshire]

The power lines are underground... Mike Pelchat, Mt. Washington's State Park Manager, has been posting videos of the construction... they're pretty cool...

Link to YouTube

Wow....no, I mean WOW! The Cog smoke I have dealt with. The summit buildings I have come to accept as a necessary evil at the very least for the sake of the MWO. I have come to ignore the glitter of car windows as they drive up the auto road. But this video was absolutely sickening....SICKENING. To watch them rape, tear and destroy the apline zone is saddening to say the least. You know, I understand it is a toss up betwen destroying the precious beauty of the alpine zone or the noise of the generators being absent from the summit. But in all honesty I'll take the generator noise over the horrid destruction any day.



Brian

 

[Kevin Judy and Emma]

Fuels

It was told to me that kerosene was used because it has a lower freeze point than diesel. With some research I was able to find that kerosene K-1 freezes (actually gels), at -73, JP-A freezes at -52 and diesel freezes at about -12. According to the chief engineer who drives the bombardier and the generators for the State Park, Chris Uggerhart, he has had diesel gel on him at -10. The Bombardier runs on a 50/50 mix in the winter, the generators run on K-1, no special additives.

The coldest air temp ever recorded on the summit was -47. hopefully they will never deal with -73.

The argument that kerosene is cheaper because it doesn't have the transportation tax is false, because fuel that is not used to power vehicles over the road is not subject to this tax. So diesel that is burned as heating fuel is not taxed this way, either.

The summit has been back on generator power since noon yesterday. This is a huge advertising weekend for WHOM and WOPQ who transmit from the summit. For some as yet unknown reason the grid was producing under 200 volts. If they had lost power the radio stations would have to refund money to the advertisers. The decision was made to switch back to generator power until the problem could be worked out.

There is much debate whether or not switching to grid was the right move. There is only one line into Bretton Woods. When power goes out there, as it often does, the utility company concentrates on getting power back to the Hotel and ski area, not to mention condos. This is where the money is. If there is no power at Marshfield Station, where the Cog originates, getting power back there is secondary. Because of this the summit could go without power for days before it is fixed. They would still have to rely on generator power for these emergencies. If something went wrong underground it would take until spring to repair.

It has also been figured in some scenarios that supplying the summit with power through the grid may prove more expensive than through the generators. The summit uses in excess of 2500 kilowatts per day. The power has to come from somewhere. There may not be generators burning fuel on the summit, but the power company has to create the energy somewhere. So, somewhere there is more fuel being consumed, and it could be a less clean fuel than kerosene.

It is unfortunate that the generators are where they are. When they were in the building that burned they bothered no one. They will eventually be moved and hopefully, they will only be used as back-up to grid power.

KDT

 

[DougPaul]

Wow....no, I mean WOW! The Cog smoke I have dealt with. The summit buildings I have come to accept as a necessary evil at the very least for the sake of the MWO. I have come to ignore the glitter of car windows as they drive up the auto road. But this video was absolutely sickening....SICKENING. To watch them rape, tear and destroy the apline zone is saddening to say the least. You know, I understand it is a toss up betwen destroying the precious beauty of the alpine zone or the noise of the generators being absent from the summit. But in all honesty I'll take the generator noise over the horrid destruction any day.

Yes, the construction looks pretty ugly when in progress and just after completion. I'll bet the construction of the Sherman Adams Summit building was also rather ugly. With time nature will cover at least some of the wounds. It doesn't look like it will return to pre-cable laying in our lifetimes, but it should get somewhat better.

I hiked Franconia Ridge just after the rock ridges had been placed along the sides of the trail (late '70s, I think). It looked very ugly--the rocks had been "mined" from the tundra just adjacent to the trail leaving ugly scars all over the place. Now you no longer notice the scars.

There may not be generators burning fuel on the summit, but the power company has to create the energy somewhere. So, somewhere there is more fuel being consumed, and it could be a less clean fuel than kerosene.

The large grid power plants tend to be more efficient than small local generators. It is also more economical to install pollution reduction devices on them. My guess is that grid power is probably net cleaner than local generator power.

Doug

 

[Kevin Rooney]

It was told to me that kerosene was used because it has a lower freeze point than diesel. With some research I was able to find that kerosene K-1 freezes (actually gels), at -73, JP-A freezes at -52 and diesel freezes at about -12. According to the chief engineer who drives the bombardier and the generators for the State Park, Chris Uggerhart, he has had diesel gel on him at -10. The Bombardier runs on a 50/50 mix in the winter, the generators run on K-1, no special additives.

The coldest air temp ever recorded on the summit was -47. hopefully they will never deal with -73.

FWIW - In high school and college during the weekends & holidays I ran the Glade Poma at Killington Ski Area (mid to late 60's) which is just below the summit. At that time it was powered by a diesel engine (they might have had twin diesels), and some mornings it was MIGHTY cold - maybe as much as -30F. I'd get dropped off at the poma an hour or so before the lift was scheduled to open in order to start and to warm up the diesels. We were shown how to start them using a can (or two) of ether, and God help you if you ran the battery down before the engines started as maintenance would have to bring up lots of batteries to get them running. I ran into trouble starting only once, and that was due to a malfunction.

I don't know what they put in the fuel to keep it from solidifying, but it worked. Putting an additive in diesel is not uncommon, as lots of vehicles are powered by diesels which get as cold, if not more so that MV - places like the upper UP, Alaska, much of northern Canada, etc, see -30F's and -40F's regularly.

 

[Kevin Judy and Emma]

More on fuels

Upon further inquiry it was discovered that because it is refined more than diesel, kerosene (K-1) is MORE expensive. The transportation tax does not apply because it is used for heating fuel, dyed red. And also the State Park who runs the generators would not be subject to pay the tax anyway.

There are still some bugs to be worked out. WHOM pays a substantial fee to have power. Since they are a "Super-station" broadcasting at over 100,000 watts, a fluctuation of several volts can cause brown outs and knock them off the air. Dropping from 208 volts to below 190 can cause this. They are the State Park's biggest tenant, so the SP wants to keep them happy. So until the bugs are worked out, the summit is back on generator power.

KDT

 

[Kevin Judy and Emma]

Summit Generators, off again!

As of 8PM last night, the summit generators have been turned off and the summit is back on grid power. So far, so good!

KDT

 

[Mad Townie]

I don't know what they put in the fuel to keep it from solidifying, but it worked. Putting an additive in diesel is not uncommon, as lots of vehicles are powered by diesels which get as cold, if not more so that MV - places like the upper UP, Alaska, much of northern Canada, etc, see -30F's and -40F's regularly.

My 1980 VW Rabbit had a diesel engine, and I always carried a spray can of ether just in case. I also plugged it in on really cold nights. Don't know what the additive was, but it was seasonal.

BTW, it got better than 40 mpg! It seems to have taken us over 25 years and hybrid technology to get back to that level.

 

[Stan]

The large grid power plants tend to be more efficient than small local generators. It is also more economical to install pollution reduction devices on them. My guess is that grid power is probably net cleaner than local generator power.

"Cleaner" may be true depending upon the source of the grid power. If it is natural gas or hydropower, then yes, but if the ultimate source is old inefficient coal or oil plants then it can be, with some effort and investment, cleaner to generate on site.

As far as efficiency, about 25-30% of the energy content of the fuel of grid generators is ultimately available at the end of the line. This is due to much of the energy being lost in the form of waste heat as well as transmission and distribution losses. On-site generation can be much more efficient than that, though system efficiency may be considerably offset by the need to transport the fuel to the summit. However, combined heat and power generation (co-generation), has energy efficiencies in excess of 75% and higher. These systems capture waste heat for heating spaces as well as water. In some applications waste heat is used for operating chillers for air conditioning.

I don't know how many power generating alternatives were considered but this strikes me as a terrific application to have demonstrated alternative generating systems which could potentially have been far more efficient and cleaner than connecting to the grid, the obvious challenge being what can realistically be installed and functional under such harsh conditions ... but keep in mind they operate fuel cells and photovoltaics in outer space ...

 

[Kevin Judy and Emma]

Fuel Delivery

They make deliveries in the summer about once a month in June, July and August. Each time three tankers carry fuel to the tanks after the Auto Road closes. I'm not sure how many gallons the trucks hold, and they are not filled to capacity to make the climb easier. The tanks are just below the summit, near Ball Crag. I believe each holds 15,000 gallons.

KDT

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

My 1980 VW Rabbit had a diesel engine, and I always carried a spray can of ether just in case. I also plugged it in on really cold nights. Don't know what the additive was, but it was seasonal.

BTW, it got better than 40 mpg! It seems to have taken us over 25 years and hybrid technology to get back to that level.

I also owned a 1980 Diesel Wabbit and it commonly got 50 mpg, and one of my trips from Massachusetts to Colorado only required two gas stops, as I carried an extra 5 gallons of diesel in the trunk (no diapers, though).

 

[--M.]

Everyone seems to be such an expert ; I'll just offer two observations:

=="Back-Up" Generators can be as much of a demand as in-use generators: Machinery like that operates best when used, not idle. Gas gets old and must be replaced; maintenance is more of an issue when they're usually mothballed; and reliability drops. There are classic stories of Wall Street houses suffering during blackouts because their roof-top generators weren't quite up to snuff. Running them for a few hours every year didn't cut it.

==In-bound electrical power can be notoriously variable. One would think a mainstream radio station would be using significant line conditioners and UPS equipment.

Lastly, I would advocate for getting the behemoths off the hill, even at the expense of current flora. Anything that moves the place closer to the illusion of "natural" is a good thing.

 

[Kevin Judy and Emma]

Expert

The State Park owns the summit, the radio station just rents from them. The project was done with state money and grants. The line actually reaches the summit on land owned by the Cog.

The radio station pays the State Park for the energy they use, not the utility company.

Like any other project, there will be some bugs to be worked out. They've only been on line a few days, things are bound to go wrong. It may be that they need to install regulators along the path of the line to keep power consistent.

I was just outside with nothing but the sound of the wind, (and the falling ice from the radio towers), the silence is wonderful. Let's all hope that this is successful.

If it works, another step towards improving the summit would be the removal of some of the unsightly giant fuel storage tanks, and perhaps enclosing the remaining ones which will still be needed to fuel the back up generators.

My guess is that the generators will still be run several times a year to keep them working well.

KDT