What kind of ice axe?

[Umsaskis]

I've been in enough tricky situations on slippery slopes in winter that I'm finally going to get an ice axe. I will not be doing technical ice climbing. I mostly do ordinary hiking trails up the higher summits, and some alpine bushwhacking, in winter. I've done some winter hikes in the presidentials without an axe, but for certain places like Jefferson and Washington, I'd like to have one.

Given that this is the kind of use I'll put the axe to, can you all give me some advice on the size and type of axe I should get (preferably without spending a fortune). From reading various websites, it looks like I should get a 65 or 70cm axe with a straight shaft? Aluminum or steel head?

And anticipating your concerned comments, I know that I need to learn self arrest before going somewhere that I might need to do it for real.

 

[weatherman]

Since I typically use mine for decoration 95% of the time, I'd go with a light one. Not much of a substitute when you do need it, though. In the event you do need it, yeah, 65-70 cm is good, straight shaft, and a nice tough head for biting into the ice you'll encounter (is aluminum too soft? others may have input). And definitely, know how to use it.

 

[cbcbd]

You're in luck, a good thread was just started on this subject:

http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9935

 

[David Metsky]

Don't bother buying an axe unless you've learned or are planning to learn how to self-arrest. Otherwise it's just a large pointy thing to hurt you when you mess up.

-dave-

 

[jfb]

I'd get a 65 cm. BD Raven

 

[Jay H]

From what I was told, if you grip the axe by the head, in your basic arrest position, the tip of the axe should be by your ankles (with your winter boots on too). Then you can adjust it in +5 or -5cm based on preference. A longer ice axe will allow you to hike it easier on the flat (but then why would you not be using trekking poles then), whereas a shorter pole will be easier to self arrest, although technique and practice will trump this weakness.

I bought and used a Black Diamond Raven pro which is basically the same as jfb's link, just a little lighter. I got it on sale so it was worth it for me on Rainier.

Jay

 

[carole]

Otherwise it's just a large pointy thing to hurt you when you mess up

yep, that's why I never got one.

 

[MadRiver]

Welsh & Dickey have two sections each for practicing your self-arresting technique. Make certain, however, that they are sufficiently covered in snow and not just ice before heading down the slope or you will end up in the trees like I did.

 

[the starchild]

all the advice above is good.

i just wanted to add that a mountaineering axe is also very useful for climbing a really, really steep snowy trail, better than treking poles; lion's head winter route would be a great example of this. The tool may be used to plunge into the deep snow as you slowly make your way up as well as for swinging and pulling yourself up.

do heed the warnings about it being not only helpful, but a potential liability as one could impale themselves if not careful. I never got formal instruction, but have had the good fortune to have friends and friendly strangers give me good advice. also, practice with it as much as possible in safe situations.

FYI: same advice/warnings about crampons. they too can do much more harm than good if you are not careful.

i don't carry my axe as much as i used to as it just sat on my pack looking cool most of the time. (i would bring it on hikes that i now realize i really didn;t need it) i have learned through experience when to bring it and when not too, but if in doubt...pack it!!!

it always helps make summit photos look better

 

[DougPaul]

Given that this is the kind of use I'll put the axe to, can you all give me some advice on the size and type of axe I should get (preferably without spending a fortune). From reading various websites, it looks like I should get a 65 or 70cm axe with a straight shaft? Aluminum or steel head?

70 cm is often advised as the ideal length for general mountaineering. Perhaps plus or minus 5 cm if you are tall or short. This length tends to have good balance.

Straight shaft--bent shafts are for technical climbing.

Aluminum heads are too soft and cannot hold a point. Get steel.

Learn to use it--it will have 3 dangerous points.

Doug

 

[NYBRAD]

I would like to add that some risk of getting injured with an axe could be reduced by not using a leash. If it's not tethered to you, the chances of impaling yourself are diminished in my opinion. Many big mountain guide outfits that cater to the less experienced climber, require an AXE and Training, but will not allow them to use leashes when out on the open slopes. It can still be used for arresting and pulling a bulge or small cliff when needed without the leash. Instead, for a beginner I would recommend wrapping some of the shaft with grip or athletic tape like the hockey or lacrosse players used to wrap their sticks for grip. Just my opinion on what seems to be a touchy subject

 

[Umsaskis]

Thanks for all the good advice. So now my question is, do I need one at all? I certainly wouldn't call myself a newbie, but I've avoided Jefferson and Washington until now because they have long stretches with nothing to stop you if you start sliding. I've hit several long, icy steep spots (i.e. Cannon, East Osceola, and the open ledge on Pyramid in the Adirondacks) that made me quite nervous in the winter when the trail was slick. I did some careful climbing up and butt-sliding down Ike on a sheet of crusty ice in early March. I made it up and down all these without mishap (or crampons, which I acquired last year and they are ever so much better), but with a lot of trepidation, to be sure. And I once witnessed my future husband shooting at high speed down around a corner below me and out of site on the normally benign Bald Mountain in southern Vermont. I haven't fallen and died yet - but I don't want to either, and I would like to ascend the higher Presidentials in the winter. Do you guys go up the Presies on a regular basis without one?

 

[Chip]

There's apparently 2 different approaches being offered;
1) You may never really NEED it, so why carry it. and
2) If you ever really NEED it, you'd better be carrying it.
So I guess it's up to you to decide.

I'm not sure why a 1lb tool generates so much consternation, though.
If I am willing to buy one, learn how to use it and carry it - who else should care ?

 

[DougPaul]

Thanks for all the good advice. So now my question is, do I need one at all? <snip> Do you guys go up the Presies on a regular basis without one?

Its a judgement call. Axes are better than poles on steep terrain and poles are better on low-angle terrain. I own both and sometimes carry one, the other, or both.

I would carry an axe in the Presies and maybe the poles too. (FWIW, I used to ice climb and have been taught self-arrest.)

Doug

 

[TCD]

I'm very experienced with ice axes. Like any tool, they're fairly straightforward to learn to use.

I read this thread to see if there was anything I might pick up, or anything I could add. There's a lot of good advice above, and most of the important points are covered. For those who want more, I recommend Chouinard's "Climbing Ice," and qualified instruction.

But as I got into the thread, it became more interesting as a commentary on what happens when a group of folks talks about a "macho" tool. I bet the conversation would look almost identical if we were to discuss chainsaws, guns, or motorcycles. And it would look completely different if we had discussed snowshoes, camp stoves, or sewing machines.

TCD

 

[Umsaskis]

But as I got into the thread, it became more interesting as a commentary on what happens when a group of folks talks about a "macho" tool. I bet the conversation would look almost identical if we were to discuss chainsaws, guns, or motorcycles. And it would look completely different if we had discussed snowshoes, camp stoves, or sewing machines.

TCD

Good point, you are very right. We're all prone to that at some time or other. I'm still not sure if I need one or not, but now I know which kind to get, and since it's a birthday gift from my in-laws, I guess I'll go ahead and get it.

I use a sewing machine, and cake decorating equipment too. I can tell you that anyone who knows anything about sewing would not need a needle-threader, and only novice cake decorators use liquid food coloring....

Look at me hijacking my own thread....thanks for all the advice, everyone!

 

[the starchild]

I use a sewing machine, and cake decorating equipment too. I can tell you that anyone who knows anything about sewing would not need a needle-threader, and only novice cake decorators use liquid food coloring....

well maybe i don't know much about sewing, but this tool looks sweeeet!
And weighs less than any above axe AND could be used to make a fire too.

the david reed smith tool

 

[Jay H]

If you do decide that a full fledged ice axe is not worth it for the short time that you think it may be useful, there are attachments you can get for the top of a trekking pole that puts a pick and an axe on it. And I've actually seen a traditional ice axes, however, the spike is attached to a telescoping arm that one can raise or lower it depending on it's usage..

Just an idea to consider..

Jay

 

[Trout]

Petzl Snowscopic Ice Axe

I have this:

http://www.mgear.com/pages/product/...vel1_id/0/level2_id/0/level3_id/0/item/640625

Does any one else have experience with this one?

 

[Tom Rankin]

I have this:

http://www.mgear.com/pages/product/...vel1_id/0/level2_id/0/level3_id/0/item/640625

Does any one else have experience with this one?

Does it convert to 'summer' use, i.e. can you remove the top and use a regular grip?