What should you do?

[Clown]

Hey all, I'm new here but glad I found these forums. I've been a fairly avid hiker most of my life, and always looking to chat with fellow climbers.

Anyways... got a question for you. Last weekend, saturday I was climbing Mt. Washington. It's an excellent hike, and I enjoy it very much. I had been hoping for some good weather, but haven't seen that all summer up there. It was rainy most of the day, and about 55 deg. It was extremely fogging from the top of Tuckerman's all the way to the peak. Visibility was about 10 meters and the AMC hut at the bottom claimed 75 mph winds at the peak(certainly seemed like it). So, my point is, it wasn't a very nice day, and I was extremely well prepared, and I was still feeling the effects. On my way down, around .8 miles from the top, I saw a family climbing up. Mother, father, friends, and a young boy, probably around 6 or 7. He was already crying and they were practically dragging him up. I stopped to talk to them, and tried to explain the conditions on the peak, and they looked cold and tired already. At their pace they probably had at least an hour more to go. Needless to say they continued to the top. To me, it did not seem at all the type of day I would take a child up that mountain. They did not seem experieced and a little kid without a jacket or hat could very well get extremely sick that way. What would you have said?

 

[bobandgeri]

We spent Fri night on the top of Washington, watched the bike race, then started down around 10 AM. Conditions when we started dwon were 30 knot winds, very limited visability, and wind driven rain. We all had gortex rain gear - jackets, hoods, and pants on. We were in the clouds until just below the Lions Head overlook.

We saw several groups of people like you describe below this point with children, dressed in all cotton, some in jeans, some with large cotton sweatshirts, many with limited water - one with diet coke and now water, many in sneakers, one even carrying a car camping type heavy, large sleeping bag with that was getting weter and heavier with every step.

We stopped and talk to a few - asked if they were going to the summit, then explained what the conditons were up there and how long we had been coming down (just under 2 hours at that point due to the slippery rocks). Only one person in one group seemed to get the message.

We knew upfront that most likely we were wasting our breath, but wanted to at least try to provide people with factual information so they could better make a decission on there hike.

Later after lunch at Pinkham Notch we did see one group that had turned around a little after we talked to them - we felt good about that. We also saw several Mt Washington Shuttle vans dropping people off who must have hiked up and paid for a ride down.

 

[Clown]

Well, we probably saw you on the way up. We started around 8:30 am. What shuttle vans do they have? That is something I wasn't aware of. Where do they pick up and drop off? Might be good to know during a bad day, and I'm assuming they are only in-use during the season.

 

[David Metsky]

The Auto Road stage (15-passanger vans) run up and down all day. If they have extra room they take hikers down to the Auto Road base, for a fee. They have one they reserve for hikers at the end of the day, but that can fill up as well. Sometimes the vans will drive hikers to Pinkham, I think the final van of the day may do that.

-dave-

 

[bobandgeri]

Dave - the two vans were saw were at around 3 PM so not the final ones. Not sure if they charge extra to go to Pinkham or if it is up to the driver. They may also send up extra vans based on calls from the desk on top. When we were there Fri night, a couple missed the last van and were stuck. The first thing the Park Dept folks did was call the cog to see if there was another train coming up, then they called down to the stage company and they sent a van up to bring them down.

The good news is that they appear to be able to handle situations where people get in over their heads.


Clown - If we did see you it would have been towards the top as we went down Lions head.

 

[Breeze]

Maybe I can help with some understanding of the Mt Washington Summit Stage ( the Mt Washington Hiker Shuttle as oppposed to the AMC Hiker Shuttle).

The Summit Stage is only a POSSIBILITY, NOT a promise of a ride down! Do not be lulled into complacency thinking you automatically have a ride down! Many things can impact the operation of this shuttle!

The Summit Stage Office is staffed daily ( weather permitting) from 9 to 5 with a dispatcher/ driver at the summit and at least one other driver. On weekends there may be 2 or 3 additional drivers for the Hiker Shuttle. The Hiker Shuttle is separate from the Guided Tour Stages leaving the Auto Road Base.

Hikers seeking a ride down from the summit must go to the Summit Stage Office in person to make their request. The vans are not 15 seaters, they are 9 passengers plus driver. The first reservation starts a 30 minute clock, and the first-trip van will head down-bound in 30 minutes with as many folks are waiting and can be accomodated. From then on, thru the day, the shuttle will make round-trips from the summit to AMC, stopping at Great Glen Base if there are folks waiting there to get to AMC, ( and space is available) then returning to the summit. The round trip takes as much as an hour and 30 minutes depending on traffic and stops, and can be more ( much more!) if there is a problem on the Auto Road. Accidents do happen on the Auto Road, and delays are a fact of life.

On busy hiking days, the shuttle can be "sold out" by early afternoon.

One cannot make advance reservations, and one cannot influence the weather. IF weather forces the Auto Road to close to the stage drivers, hikers at the summit will HAVE TO descend on foot. That is one reason the Auto Road Web page cautions you to NOT COUNT on the Hiker Shuttle for your trip down! Think carefully about this if you are ascending in bad weather .... there is no promise of an easy ride down! It is all weather dependant, just as your hike experience.

The last Hiker Shuttle to leave the summit is the dispatcher/driver at closing time, whatever that time may be depending on weather and road conditions.

In the best of circumstances, there is a Road Patrol that "sweeps" the summit and herds every car down before the final gate closing. This driver may be booked full for hikers as " the last resort", so don't count on hitch-hiking there either.

If you go UP Mt Washington on foot, plan on coming DOWN the same way.


Breeze

 

[SteveHiker]

I'll admit it. I was caught up there about two years ago and rode the shuttle down. It cost $24 a piece. It was a good thing I overheard someone else talking about it on the way up or I probably would have taken the train and then been stuck on the wrong side from my car.

The weather had gotten bad very fast. The temperature was low to mid 40's, the wind was gusting between 40 and 60 and there was a little sleet drizzle. But that wasn't the problem, I was prepared for that clothing wise. The problem was the fog. The visibility was so low that I couldn't see my own feet most of the time. I still don't know what one can do in that situation and I'm glad I was on the one mountain up there where you have that option.

 

[DougPaul]

The problem was the fog. The visibility was so low that I couldn't see my own feet most of the time. I still don't know what one can do in that situation and I'm glad I was on the one mountain up there where you have that option.

If worst comes to worst, one can always hike down the auto road. Exposed to the prevailing winds and not the pleasantest walk, but shouldn't be too hard to follow as long as it isn't covered by snow drifts. I've done it once or twice.

Doug

 

[Clown]

One thing that I have learned from climbing Mt. Washington is that you need to always be prepared for the un-expected. That's what makes climbing it so fun!

 

[canoehead]

what should you do?

hi clown
i to was climbing up Mt, Washington last August and came upon a very simalar incident. I to stopped and talked to the unprepared family about time, distance, and the bad weather we having at the time.The fog was so thick you couldn't see but only a few yards in front of you Then pea sized hail started comin down during a wicked thunderstorm I don't know if they ever stopped climbing that day. We made the summit after a long wait, but i saw many people climbing with out what i would call proper gear

safe adventures
canoehead

 

[Waumbek]

Maybe I can help with some understanding of the Mt Washington Summit Stage ( the Mt Washington Hiker Shuttle as oppposed to the AMC Hiker Shuttle). . . . If you go UP Mt Washington on foot, plan on coming DOWN the same way. Breeze

Thanks, Breeze, for clarification on this.

 

[David Metsky]

Thanks, Breeze, for clarification on this.

My thanks as well, especially for correcting my mistakes. Please stay here and join in the converstaions, you obviously spend a little time on the Rockpile.

-dave-

 

[BrentD22]

Imo

I have been witness to the ever growning unexperianced hiking families with children up in the mountains.

I just had a conversation with a mother and her 2 children 8 & 9 the other day. I was stretching my legs at a view point on the Kanc. She said "we just came down from there" in a tone like I should congradulate her sounding like wow we are special. I said oh you did (thinking it must be their first hike or something to talk like that). She went on acting like she was better than me and that there is no way that I do what her and her 2 children have done (or at least that was the tone of the conv). I let her talk for a little longer, then mentioned that I used to work trail crew. She said "whats that". I said those are the poeople you might see with various tools, chain saws, ect working on the trails. She then seemed kind of embarrassed. We talked for a little bit longer about the area and how many 4000 footers her and her children have done (all but 7). It struck me odd that someone that seemed to have very little knowledge about hiking and the skills involved other than walking up a mountain had completed that many. She went on to talk about certain mountains and how "oh that one was easy" and "that one was a ruff day, he cried when we got near the top". She mentioned how Mt. Washington was "an easy one".

Anyway I think you get the jist of the kind of person I was speaking to. A nice person that just is oblivious to the dangers that could occur.

I think it would be a good idea for NH, the AMC, WMNF, or another organization should get out full force over the next couple of years with PSA's about the dangers that can occur. Too many people just don't know or understand. Not because they are stupid or anything only because in my belief there may not be enough information readily available discussing the real deal.

 

[jessbee]

I just had a conversation with a mother and her 2 children 8 & 9 the other day. I was stretching my legs at a view point on the Kanc. She said "we just came down from there" in a tone like I should congradulate her sounding like wow we are special.... It struck me odd that someone that seemed to have very little knowledge about hiking and the skills involved other than walking up a mountain had completed that many.

Too many people just don't know or understand. Not because they are stupid or anything only because in my belief there may not be enough information readily available discussing the real deal.

Interesting, sounds like the same woman I came across on the Osceolas yesterday. She wouldn't stop talking for like 20 minutes, as I tried to inch away politely... Even though I've just done 12 of the 48 I felt more prepared to be out there than she and her little ones. Hiking entails much more than ticking peaks off of a list. And I'm sure I've spent much more time in the woods than some, just not on the "48."

I think information is readily available but (and this is not only with hiking!) many people tend to jump in to hobbies without really doing any research or taking things seriously.

I joined this forum because I found that there is such a wealth of personal knowledge and information out there, and that people are more than willing to share. Compared to most of you, I'm just a newbie and will gladly take advice and learn from your experiences. Someone's signature on this forum is "THINK!" and that is the best piece of advice one can offer. Not enough people think, that is the problem. There's plenty of information out there, just not enough people seeking it out. Unfortunately, offering advice to people who aren't looking for it usually doesn't make much of an impact.

 

[LarryD]

I had an experience similar to Clown's a couple of weeks ago on Whiteface, and was not happy with how I handled it. It was hot and very humid. We were coming down the Blueberry Ledge trail, and were about an hour down (meaning the steep ledges were behind us) when we came across a guy and (presumably) his two children on their way up. The boy was about 10 and the girl 7 or 8. Both children were wearing jeans and the girl had a small canteen (the father did have a day pack). It was about 2:00 p.m.

As we approached them the girl was crying and the father put us on the spot by saying to her "I'll bet these people will tell you we don't have far to go." His tone and the way he phrased his comment did not lead me to think he was actually looking for accurate information. Rather, he was trying to prod the children along.

What I should have done is answered truthfully, that they had a good hour and fifteen minutes (at least) to go, and that much of that will involve scrambling over ledges. However instead I muttered something banal like "It's not too bad."

As we continued down the trail, I began to feel bad that I was not more forthcoming. On the other hand it was not likely he was going to turn around no matter what I said. However that may just be a rationalization on my part.

 

[RoySwkr]

Don't assume that everyone hiking between Lakes and the summit (or other trails a mile or so from the summit for that matter) have hiked all the way from the bottom.

Many years ago I was chatting with a former Tuckerman Ravine caretaker and he said that about every week during the warm season somebody would come by and say they had just hiked down from the summit and where was the ski lift back up? In many cases the visitor would then hike on down to Pinkham while the caretaker or a friend would fetch the car from the summit for a fee of around $20 (more like $50 today).

If worst comes to worst, one can always hike down the auto road.

I did this once, and never will again when the road is open. I went up Chandler Brook planning to go down Madison Gulf Trail, but couldn't find a herd path over to Nelson Crag Trail and the scrub was too thick to walk parallel to the road. Often the road is between steep areas on both sides and it was scary walking with the heavy traffic. One of the vans came around the corner 200 yards ahead, and apparently the driver was distracted by seeing me and put one wheel up on the rock guard rail. I decided I was a hazard to others as well as myself and bushwhacked down to Madison Gulf Trail. It think it would be even more scary in bad weather.

 

[DougPaul]

If worst comes to worst, one can always hike down the auto road.

I did this once, and never will again when the road is open. I went up Chandler Brook planning to go down Madison Gulf Trail, but couldn't find a herd path over to Nelson Crag Trail and the scrub was too thick to walk parallel to the road. Often the road is between steep areas on both sides and it was scary walking with the heavy traffic. One of the vans came around the corner 200 yards ahead, and apparently the driver was distracted by seeing me and put one wheel up on the rock guard rail. I decided I was a hazard to others as well as myself and bushwhacked down to Madison Gulf Trail. It think it would be even more scary in bad weather.

I've only done it twice--both times late enough that there wasn't much traffic.

On the first one, we took Nelson Craig Tr because we thought it was a short-cut. It was until the sun set... Feeling our way down the trail in the dark wasn't much fun. (Didn't have any lights--it was the trational beginner's first hike in the Whites routine.)

Doug