White gas or isobutane stove for winter camping?

[Dehydrator]

As a follow up to my cooking in the tent question, what do you think is the best stove for winter camping? According to REI, canister stoves don't work well below 32 degrees as they depressurize and don't burn well or at all. White gas stoves on the on the other hand, work well in freezing temperatures but require priming, are heavier, and are possibly more dangerous.
Do any of you experience problems with your Jet Boils or other canister stoves in extremely cold weather? Are white gas stoves worth the extra care and hassle?

 

[vinovampire]

During the past few winters, I've used an inverted canister stove with good results. Inverting the canister solves the pressurizing issue. Specifically, I've used the MSR WindPro and now a WindPro II, which is made to be inverted unlike the previous version.

MSR WindPro II in Winter Conditions

 

[Chip]

what do you think is the best stove for winter camping?

White gas.

Are white gas stoves worth the extra care and hassle?

Yes.

I also reject that they are heavier as most canister users carry 2 canisters since they never know when they'll run out.
Having said that, I haven't seen the inverted canister in use, as vino recommends.

 

[jfb]

I usually use a Coleman 442 white gas stove. The biggest problem I have with white gas stoves is that if you shut them down when they are hot, they can flare up when relit.

 

[Brambor]

I have used alcohol stove on 4 winter camping trips last year and it worked fine, especially if I had the stove and the fuel under my parka for 30 minutes to warm up the liquid and the stove parts. I also used my woodburning stove. That worked great although I am always envisioning a situation where there is so much snow on the ground to make it impractical to collect small sticks. This year I want to try something new. I bought FatWood on Amazon for a decent price, cut a bunch in half and put it into my stuff sack. It weighs about as much as my alcohol fuel, I am estimating it will last a long time, light easily and provide good base to some additional wood I will gather in the snowy landscape that would otherwise be harder to light. Or, just use the fatwood... I haven't done any testing yet as the fatwood arrived yesterday and I'm busy until monday with other stuff.

 

[DougPaul]

Note that there is a significant difference between an upright canister stove and an inverted canister stove.

The upright canister evaporates the fuel in the canister which cools it down and reduces the vapor pressure. If you are using a mixed propane-butane fuel, the propane (higher vapor pressure) evaporates off first leaving you with a pure butane (lower vapor pressure) fuel for the final bit.

In contrast, the inverted canister stove is a liquid fuel stove--the evaporation occurs in the burner (just like a gasoline stove) and therefore it can be used to lower temps than the upright canister stove because the canister is not actively cooled during operation. The mixed fuel also stays mixed to the end which also improves low temp performance. (I've never used one--I presume it requires priming, just like a gasoline stove.)

There used to be a propane backpacking stove (the "Grasshopper"), but propane requires a heavier canister due to the high vapor pressure. It would presumably operate to a lower temp than the equivalent butane stove.

IMO, gasoline (or kerosene outside of North America) is the best fuel for winter use. It operates well at all temps found in the NE (and much colder...). The better winter stoves have pumps and keep the fuel cold--such stoves are very easy to prime.


FWIW I use gasoline (Coleman fuel) in winter. My stove (MSR model G, predecessor to the XGK) is easy to prime, easy to use, has a good windscreen, and produces lots of heat for melting snow and cooking. I can also top off my fuel bottle before starting (ie no partially used canisters).

BTW, fuel names can be ambiguous: see the Fuel FAQ http://fuel.papo-art.com/

Note: make sure you know how to melt snow without melting your pot...

Doug

 

[Tom_Murphy]

I have read about people having great success with alcohol and inverted canister.

I like the peace of mind of having a fuel and a stove that I know is is going to work well no matter how cold it gets......white gas / SVEA 123R.

 

[tomcat32]

Isn't Coleman Fuel aka white gas different from gasoline? FWIW you will get a little better operation in colder temps (not bitterly cold) if you put a canister in a pocket close to your body to warm it up. As far as cooking in tent, I wouldn't want to prime a white gas stove in a tent. Even with experience, my whisperlite was fickle sometimes while priming and occasionally get a flare up. Perhaps in a bottomless tent it may not be as big of a deal.

 

[jfb]

Isn't Coleman Fuel aka white gas different from gasoline?

Yes, they are different. My 442 stove is supposed to work with both, but I've only ever used Coleman fuel. My old snowblower did not work with Coleman fuel.

 

[Quietman]

There used to be a propane backpacking stove (the "Grasshopper"), but propane requires a heavier canister due to the high vapor pressure. It would presumably operate to a lower temp than the equivalent butane stove.
Doug

I still have a 40 yr old Primus grasshopper, used it last month when car camping, and have used it down to 20 degrees when hiking. I replaced it for hiking with a Coleman Peak 1, but still like using it. Simple design, never failed to work. However, the Coleman is much better in really cold temps.

Century is now selling an updated version of the Grasshopper on Amazon for $33.

 

[DougPaul]

Isn't Coleman Fuel aka white gas different from gasoline?

They are different: white gas (no longer readily available) is intended as a motor fuel, Coleman fuel was developed for stoves.

From the Fuel FAQ: http://fuel.papo-art.com/#Notes_on_White_Gasoline_

Notes on White Gasoline
<[email protected]> writes....... (May 1996)
Coleman fuel and white gasoline are not the same. Coleman fuel contains components that are much less volatile than gasoline (such as naptha). This is what makes it safer to use in a stove or lantern. White gasoline is simply gasoline that contains no antiknock additives. Commercial unleaded gasoline contains additives that will likely damage your stove unless it designed to accept this type of fuel (some are).
I suppose the question really is: Can I use white gas in my stove? Answer is: probably. If it is clean and contains no additives, it will burn just fine. It is more dangerous to handle since it is more volatile, but clean, pure white gas will probably not damage your stove. At least it has never harmed my Svea 123.

Notes on Coleman Fuel
<[email protected]> writes.......(Feb 2003)
(Frank Schmidt, Senior Project Engineer, Appliances-Fuels-Patio Grills, The Coleman Co.)
Coleman Fuel was developed in the early 50's as a replacement for "white gas" which in the US was readily available at hardware stores and gas stations. This was the original motor fuel, no tetraeythlead, or additives, also know as casing head gas, water white color. Was also used as a cleaning agent for mostly white materials, also a fuel for outboard motors and early powered lawnmowers. This source started to disappear in the 50's due to technology.
The Coleman fuel of today has not changed in years, it is a blended naphtha with no lead compounds, and a paraffinic type. The benzene content is controlled to .5% by wt. or less and we add a rust inhibitor along with a green dye for identification. I will attach the specification for the fuel for your information. One point, you might find interesting is Coleman Fuel is the preferred fuel for fire eaters, have several inquiries a year as to the benzene content and is it safe.??

BTW, while some stoves can burn motor fuels, the additives can result in poisonous fumes and clog your stove.

BTW2: I use a Solo Camping Lighter* http://www.amazon.com/SOLO-Camping-Lighter/dp/B003IMYQP2 http://www.sierratradingpost.com/solo-camping-lighter-extendable-nozzle-refillable~p~2579d/ with my MSR model G stove (predecessor to the XGK). This butane lighter has a ~3 inch long flame extension tube which can be inserted into the body of a stove to light or relight it while it is still hot. In the past I have used butane lighters (Bic?) which can shoot a 2-3 inch flame into the stove (ie small flamethrowers), but the Solo works better. (Note: warm up a butane lighter in your pocket before using it. And yes, I carry a backup ligher as well as backup storm-proof matches.)

When it is really cold, you need to be able to put the igniting flame right down on the priming gasoline due to the low vapor pressure.

* Hmm... The REI reviews on this lighter are pretty negative, but the Sierra Trading Post reviews are mixed but generally better. I haven't had any problems with mine, but I haven't used it very much. The flamethrowers certainly did their job.

Doug

 

[Will]

Years ago I used to use a variation of the "YoYo" iso stove that held the can upside down and it worked quite well in the winter. It also had a preheat loop in the line which took the iso through the flame. Great stove. But with large volumes of snow to be melted for water, nothing beats liquid gas (e.g. Coleman fuel or kerosene).

Alcohol stoves (I use a punched fancy feast catfood can) work great in winter with some care, maybe more care than many would like to be bothered with. The alcohol has to boil and that's best prepared for with body-warmed fuel and a stove well-insulated from the snow. I use a piece of cardboard. It would be great to body-warm the can stove and the pot as well.

The big problem with alcohol stoves is wind. A good windscreen AND a sheltered location are required. I dig out a small pit in the snow even if the overall location itself is good.

But, again, if large quantities of snowmelt are required, a liquid gas stove is the best.

 

[skiguy]

Note that there is a significant difference between an upright canister stove and an inverted canister stove.

The upright canister evaporates the fuel in the canister which cools it down and reduces the vapor pressure. If you are using a mixed propane-butane fuel, the propane (higher vapor pressure) evaporates off first leaving you with a pure butane (lower vapor pressure) fuel for the final bit.

In contrast, the inverted canister stove is a liquid fuel stove--the evaporation occurs in the burner (just like a gasoline stove) and therefore it can be used to lower temps than the upright canister stove because the canister is not actively cooled during operation. The mixed fuel also stays mixed to the end which also improves low temp performance. (I've never used one--I presume it requires priming, just like a gasoline stove.)

There used to be a propane backpacking stove (the "Grasshopper"), but propane requires a heavier canister due to the high vapor pressure. It would presumably operate to a lower temp than the equivalent butane stove.

IMO, gasoline (or kerosene outside of North America) is the best fuel for winter use. It operates well at all temps found in the NE (and much colder...). The better winter stoves have pumps and keep the fuel cold--such stoves are very easy to prime.


FWIW I use gasoline (Coleman fuel) in winter. My stove (MSR model G, predecessor to the XGK) is easy to prime, easy to use, has a good windscreen, and produces lots of heat for melting snow and cooking. I can also top off my fuel bottle before starting (ie no partially used canisters).

BTW, fuel names can be ambiguous: see the Fuel FAQ http://fuel.papo-art.com/

Note: make sure you know how to melt snow without melting your pot...

Doug

FYI...http://www.cascadedesigns.com/video...e&height=325&width=560&title=Liquid Feed Mode

 

[DougPaul]

FYI...http://www.cascadedesigns.com/video...e&height=325&width=560&title=Liquid Feed Mode

OK--a reasonable description. I had put in a comment about using upright mode to prime the stove for inverted use, but removed it to avoid over-complicating my post.

One factor that the video does not address is the degradation of mixed fuels when used in upright mode.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

There is also the issue of overall system weight:
* for short trips, lighter stoves with less energy dense fuels (eg alcohol or butane) win
* for long trips, heaver stoves with more energy dense fuels (kerosene is best, then gasoline) win

Don't forget that it takes a lot of fuel to melt snow if liquid water is not available.

And, of course, there are hard to quantify issues like useability in less-than-ideal weather, the amount of care required to run the stove, and fuel availability.


My gasoline-powered MSR G works well in summer too...

D.

 

[Tom_Murphy]

Don't forget that it takes a lot of fuel to melt snow if liquid water is not available.

And gathering all the snow is tedious. If you can find running water and/or break through the ice, you can save yourself a lot of time and fuel.

Of course, camping away from water sources because there is snow on the ground is one of the advantages of winter backpacking.

 

[DougPaul]

And gathering all the snow is tedious.

One trick is to fill a large plastic bag with snow and haul it over to the cooking area. I also carry two pots in winter--one for cooking and one for scooping snow.

If you can find running water and/or break through the ice, you can save yourself a lot of time and fuel.

As long as you don't fall in too...

Either way, it is a good idea to bring the water to a boil before using it--the pathogens are still out in winter and snow can be pretty dirty.

Pine needles bring flavor and add texture to one's water... (A hat-shaped shower-drain wire-mesh strainer placed in the opening of wide-mouth bottles when filling them is a good way to keep the needles etc out of your bottles. eg http://www.homedepot.com/p/DANCO-2-1-2-in-Stainless-Steel-Mesh-Strainer-88820/100164331 )

Of course, camping away from water sources because there is snow on the ground is one of the advantages of winter backpacking.

As well as one can build snow platforms in otherwise impossible locations. Re the thread about conditions on the Osseo trail and its side comments about Flume Slide Tr, a friend camped on the slide itself courtesy of some snow engineering...

Doug

 

[Lawn Sale]

Dehydrator, I have a few spare MSR Whisperlite's and a Whisperlite International I'm looking to get rid of, PM me for more details. I have way too many stoves and these are just sitting on the shelf. They have new rebuild kits in them and work flawlessly.

I use an alcohol/Coleman/white gas stove in the winter, either the MSR Dragonfly for simmering ability if I'm with people who want a more varied menu or a XGK EX if it's going to be nasty or I just need to boil water. I have a Primus OmniFuel but don't really care for it, I hoped it'd be a good replacement for the Primus Himalaya but it's not . As an emergency stove I use an Esbit titanium sold fuel stove (0.3 oz) which should be able to get me through a night if it came to that.

I save the canister stoves for the warmer weather.

 

[Dehydrator]

Wait, I'm confused- can you burn alcohol in a white gas stove?

 

[Dehydrator]

Does anyone have experience with the Whisperlite Universal? It looks like it can use either fuel and is easily convertible.