Wildcat pass required for hikers?

[Nif]

We came down just after closing a couple of weeks ago and there was no problem, but there was nobody out there either. We reached they deck around 5pm, then headed down. Did a little in the dark, but it was no problem.

There was patrol at the bottom which we went by but no one questioned us about anything.

 

[bobandgeri]

as a backcountry snowboarder I've dodged a few dogs.. some like to jump out in front of ya, some like to give chase, etc.. so I can see this being a good policy preventing injury to dog or skier/snowboarder, esp. considering we are talking about an open ski resort trail.. so, looks like hiking is free @ wildcat and it was just bad communication..

Why punish all hikers with dogs - simply post a rule that dogs myst be on a short leash?

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Absolute or simple rules are much easier to communicate and enforce. I acknowledge that it punishes responsible people (as I mentioned earlier in this thread). We have already discussed how the ski patrol already is not evenly enforcing the existing rules, whatever they are

Tim

 

[RoySwkr]

One question - back when Wildcat ran the gondola in winter they offered free rides down, is this still true?

>I have exchanged a few emails with both Wildcat and the Forest
>Service. Here is a summary of what I have been told.

Thanks B&G, it appears that Wildcat and the Forest Service are equally clueless about snowshoeing

>Wildcat does not wish to deter hiking.

Huh? Until you can find out before you leave home if hiking is allowed that day, they are in effect strongly discouraging hiking

>The uphill ski pass is designed for folks that want to hike/skin up
>and ski down the mountain.

But they still charge you if you hike both ways?

>Downhill hikers are asked to check in with the ski patrol before
>descending to be sure it is safe to do so.

And what if they say no?

>Access on the ski trails is not allowed outside of operating hours

Many hikers may take longer just to go up the ski trails to A and back depending on snow conditions

>Also seems like they are punnishing all dog owners
> for the few that may not pick
>up after their dog on the ski slope/trail.

Yup, but I find it less objectionable here than Livermore Road

 

[dug]

As a dog owner, and a skier, I'm OK with not allowing dogs on the trails. I've had more than one dog cross in front of me when I was skiing (OK, most of the time it was my dog). To run the risk of having a dog, well behaved and short-leashed or not, to cross in front of a downhill skier and taking them out isn't worth it, IMO. Skiers on hiking trails are rare enough and (for me anyway) I expect to be in more control and expecting more sudden dangers from tighter, quick turns and trees whizzing by me. As a skier on a ski trail, I have more of an expectation of a wider path and not four-legged creaturer suddenly in my path.

Dog crap is a bit of a copout, but I think we can say we've seen it on the trails and it stinks (no pun intended) to ski through...

 

[erugs]

Some people get away with saying that their dog is a "service" dog. That is so wrong and very bad for those that have actual service dogs that are trained to provide value to them.

I agree with you and Michael J about people using the term "therapy dog" as a means to get around a ruling and not a reality. Under the Fair Housing Act, a therapy dog or emotional dog cannot be denied. All that's needed is a physician saying it is important for the individual's health, and I think that would be fairly easy to get. Therapy/Emotional dogs, unlike Service dogs, do not require any training or certification. I was under the impression that guidelines of the ADA had been adjusted in recent years, but may be wrong about that. All I know is that our condo association wasted about $1500 in legal fees because one or two board members were firmly against having any dogs in our building, other than the few that had been grandfathered in, a ruling that came before the one who had the most angst for this issue moved in.

Most of us bring dogs into our lives because of their emotional value to us, so maybe it is a fine line?

 

[MichaelJ]

An emotional support dog is only qualified under the FHA if the human is disabled per the definition in ADA. Thus, an emotional support dog requires a written affidavit from a service provider (i.e., Doctor) stating that the person in question has a disability and cannot reasonably function without the dog. And still, an emotional support dog is only allowed in otherwise-no-pets housing, not in restaurants, etc.

So if someone's simply trying to scam the system and the landlord makes it go to court, the (potential) tenant has a fairly high standard to meet to prove their case. Not many doctors would perjure themselves in court just to get someone's dog into an apartment.

I'm not aware of the FHA protecting therapy dogs. Therapy dogs are pets who visit places like hospitals, nursing homes, schools, etc. They do not have an assistive relationship with their owner. I certainly don't think a therapy dog deserves special treatment.

I expect it won't be too many years before the various definitions of service dog, therapy dog, emotional support dog, etc. are all standardized. It is rather cumbersome that an emotional support dog has FHA protection like a service dog, but is not actually defined clearly by any law. A service dog is not a pet. A therapy dog may be a pet but "works" for other people. An emotional support dog "works" for the owner, but is also a pet. It all needs clarification, because the more people who scam the system, the more people will push back against the dogs.

 

[erugs]

I expect it won't be too many years before the various definitions of service dog, therapy dog, emotional support dog, etc. are all standardized. It is rather cumbersome that an emotional support dog has FHA protection like a service dog, but is not actually defined clearly by any law. A service dog is not a pet. A therapy dog may be a pet but "works" for other people. An emotional support dog "works" for the owner, but is also a pet. It all needs clarification, because the more people who scam the system, the more people will push back against the dogs.

Definitely agree. So that means I'll have to move before bringing a dog into my home. Or fight the condo Rules and Regulations, which might be easier, as it lost by just two votes last time. Of course, the dog that came in is only 5 lbs., and not the medium size that more appeals to me.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I just called and they were trying very hard to discourage me from hiking up or down Polecat. "There are dozens of other hiking trails in the area", "We are an operating business". "You will need a pass to hike up or down, regardless of skiing or hiking". She was clearly frustrated with me, even though I was polite and explained that I did not want to cause any more animosity with hikers and wished to be there under their rules.

Apparently they still do not have their story straight.

Tim

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Well, I heard 5 different opinions from 7 different people. The two kids parking cars said "It's National Forest, just hike up." Then they checked with their supervisor who said "I think we are charging now, please check with guest services". Guest services said "Yes, you must ALWAYS buy a pass, hiking or skiing". They said it was on their web site, but I couldn't find it (nothing about down, up is covered.) A ski patrol guy checked us on the way up, then we asked "What would you do if we didn't have them?" and his answer was "nothing." Then he asked how much the pass cost. On the way down I asked two more ski patrollers. They said they weren't going to stop people from coming down, but they have a laminated card in the summit shed that explains the fees. One told me the pass was a Forest Service rule (for liability) - that one I hadn't heard before. The other said hiking down was OK if "you came from another mountain." We met another couple who'd come up without a pass and were not stopped, bothered or questioned by anyone.

Is it any wonder there is confusion? What I think is safe is to do the traditional loop up 19MBT to A to D and down Polecat. But don't quote me


From http://www.skiwildcat.com/trails.html

Uphill Access Route - Stray Cat to Polecat
Uphill access to Wildcat Mountain by lift or climbing, hiking or any manual assent is given only after a lift ticket, or skyride ticket has been purchased for the day or with a seasonal pass. Users of facilities do so under NH statutes S225-A:24 and RSA 637:8. The tickets carry WMSA liability waiver. A designated route up the mountain will be identified and posted at the ticket counter (Stray Cat, Middle Polecat and Upper Polecat). Access to the mountain for skiing is prohibited before and after operating seasons and before and after operating hours. WMSA prohibits out of bounds skiing and marks territory off as out of bounds. Ski Patrol does not patrol such areas. Due to snowmaking, grooming activities, and associated vehicle traffic typically occurring on the mountain, public risk management issues may at times exist during the pre-season period. Therefore, to protect the public from potential snowmaking and grooming situations that may exist from time to time, prior to opening day of the ski season, the ski area will post signs at uphill access points on the lower-mountain trail system closing areas involved in snowmaking activity. After the operation is closed for the day and prior to opening the next day, use of the trails and facilities for snowsports activities is not permitted for reasons of public safety and liability. Outside of ski season, foot traffic is welcome on the mountain, although there may be times when certain trails may be closed to the public for safety reasons access due to construction or maintenance activities.


I paid $10 and went up and down the Polecat. Call it market research.

Tim

 

[Ed'n Lauky]

Outside of ski season, foot traffic is welcome on the mountain, although there may be times when certain trails may be closed to the public for safety reasons access due to construction or maintenance activities. [/i] Tim

That's good news, anyway, for the after season. Do you think we can we assume that dogs will be permitted?

 

[Kevin Rooney]

I paid $10 and went up and down the Polecat. Call it market research.

Tim

Now that "we're all in this together", or something similar, maybe the $10 can be considered a VFTT-related reimbursable expense!

 

[andrewb]

Outside of ski season, foot traffic is welcome on the mountain

I hope this means the public can do a hike up ski down after they close but while there is remaining snow - that is a lot of fun!

 

[cushetunk]

I hope this means the public can do a hike up ski down after they close but while there is remaining snow - that is a lot of fun!

Nope:

Access to the mountain for skiing is prohibited before and after operating seasons and before and after operating hours. WMSA prohibits out of bounds skiing and marks territory off as out of bounds.

Apparently Wildcat is doing their best to discourage two the of the fastest-growing skiing trends. Good luck with that. Someone should let them know that encouraging skiing will likely lead to more (paid) skiing.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

One of the ski patrollers was interested in checking out vftt.org. Maybe he'll read this. Today we were discussing my experience yesterday and it occurred to me that they could give away the passes, or even sell them, and have them be good for some credit off a future lift ticket. Anything extra they can do so that they get people to have the ticket and thus the WMSA waiver. It's good for everybody that way. Not as good as reverting to the old policy of "have fun, don't get hurt!"

Tim

 

[Tom Rankin]

Nope: ...

But there is a NOPE to your NOPE, in the same paragraph above!

"Outside of ski season, foot traffic is welcome on the mountain, although there may be times when certain trails may be closed to the public for safety reasons access due to construction or maintenance activities."

 

[rocket21]

Here's how another ski area located along the Appalachian Trail handles things:

Bromley, VT

During operating hours Bromley does not restrict uphill access to skiers with climbing skins. Uphill ski access may occur area wide. Due to safety concerns uphill access by foot, snowshoe, ice crampons, and skis is restricted to trail edges. Leashed or unleashed dogs are not allowed on ski trails.

Night access and use of the ski trails is not recommended. Real dangers and hazards exist to both the climber and ski area personnel working on the mountain.

 

[freighttrain48]

I hope this means the public can do a hike up ski down after they close but while there is remaining snow - that is a lot of fun!

This has never been a issue in the past and at some point I will skin up the polecat and see if I get harassed. I'm a pass holder at wildcat but I will hide my pass to see if anyone says anything. I skin up crothed mt ( also owned by peak resorts) all the time and have never had anything other than kind words of encouragement and Questions about my splitboard from the ski patrol.

 

[RoySwkr]

Access to the mountain for skiing is prohibited before and after operating seasons and before and after operating hours.
...
After the operation is closed for the day and prior to opening the next day, use of the trails and facilities for snowsports activities is not permitted for reasons of public safety and liability.

According to the first version hiking down late should be OK, the second is more iffy

Uphill access to Wildcat Mountain by lift or climbing, hiking or any manual assent is given only after a lift ticket, or skyride ticket has been purchased for the day or with a seasonal pass.
...
Outside of ski season, foot traffic is welcome on the mountain, although there may be times when certain trails may be closed to the public for safety reasons access due to construction or maintenance activities.

Says nothing about potential fees offseason.

Sorry Ed, still nothing about dogs although they do travel on foot.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

(looks like I did not mention this earlier) In my conversations with the ski patrol on Saturday, one of them mentioned he was OK with dogs on leashes, and has asked people to put loose dogs on leash. He mentioned having to treat a dog who was off-leash and was hit by a skier and nearly had a limb severed. So, I can understand the policy of no-dogs, but again, understanding and enforcement of this and other policies is all over the map.

Tim