Are you confident in your hiking partners abilities to help you?

I think that if I'm going to get serious in this "hobby", I need to be able to help those around me in case of an emergency...I say that because If I'm tagging along with others into the woods, I better know how to get out in case of an emergency, can my group depend on me?....after a lot of thinking I truthfully have to say "yes" and "no"....on a marked trail it's a yes...but on a bushwack I'm no help at all....is a GPS the answer?...I'm sure the real hikers will say "no"....read the map, study the compass and learn it that way...sorry guys, easier said than done....do you stick with the same partners for comfort or try new ones once in a while? (no dirty comments please) just trying to get better and helpful..thx

My most frequent hiking partner can't find his way out of a paper bag (sorry Pat!). He can't even read a road map, so I think compass training is futile. I occasionally make noises about who'll rescue us if I get hurt...but I think I'll keep him anyway.

David, most people will find it pretty easy to learn the rudiments of route-finding. I'm no expert with the compass but I haven't gotten lost yet. Next time you come to New England, we'll all have to go on a bushwhack!

That said, I've been on a few hikes with GPS experts and they are really impressive. I enjoy the challenge of map and compass, though.

I am very adept at the map & compass, having taught it in the military and for part of a state hunter safety course, so I am confident in my abilities should I run into any particularly tough paper bags, or the elusive multi-layered plastic bags.

But, I almost prefer to hike alone. I have no set pace, it varies with the day, and I dislike hiking to a schedule. I don't mind hiking with other people, and do enjoy the company...most of the time, but it's much different from having a hiking partner.

I guess I would say my two hiking partners are "myself" and "I", and they join "me" every time. I know I can rely on them in a pinch, and they've never let me down. We have the same likes and dislikes, and chat openly with one another. We're getting to know each other better over the last few years since the divorce, but it's been a long process.

I have been let down by too many other people, so it's hard for me to completely trust someone else. I have to while ice climbing, but that's vastly different from hiking.

I usually go with the same group of people. In this case, I think you gain a certain level of trust in those people, and realize that if, God forbid, something where to go very wrong, your group has people who can get things done under pressure. Often, during hikes, I go through hypotheticals in my head and guess who would need to take which roles. As far as hiking with different people, I think that is a good idea if you don't feel comforable. But remember, getting comfortable with a group takes time too.

I am on a search and resue team so for me I feel confident in any situation. I mainly hike solo and feel confident in myself. I also now when not to take chances. but when I do hike with others I feel more confident even if it someone new to hiking. You just have to use common sense and be prepared.

coldfeet said:

I think that if I'm going to get serious in this "hobby", I need to be able to help those around me in case of an emergency...I say that because If I'm tagging along with others into the woods, I better know how to get out in case of an emergency, can my group depend on me?....after a lot of thinking I truthfully have to say "yes" and "no"....on a marked trail it's a yes...but on a bushwack I'm no help at all....is a GPS the answer?...I'm sure the real hikers will say "no"....read the map, study the compass and learn it that way...sorry guys, easier said than done....do you stick with the same partners for comfort or try new ones once in a while? (no dirty comments please) just trying to get better and helpful..thx

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As for hiking partners, I feel very safe with mine.

I'd recommend you take a wilderness first aid course. The 3500 Club sponsors them once or twice a year. Laurie or ERD might have details.

This will also give you more stuff to carry!

Another thing to consider is group size. Those who wish to solo hike are free to do so (and I've done it too, even in Winter), but a group of 3-4 is generally the recommended minimum for backcountry hiking.

Well David, basic rudimentary map reading and dead reckoning skills are useful, (and not just in the woods or just for hiking either). Simple experience should get you more familiar with compass use or go out and learn orienteering or perhaps take up geocaching.

A great park that isn't that far from you to learn about compass skills is Harriman, it's big, it's not terribly far from you and there are good maps for it from the NYNJTC. AMC actually does some orienteering classes in it near the silvermine area as there is a designated Orienteering course there. Pick a free weekend and have fun. If you want, I can set up something for you to bushwack to, and can come along and help you out. I know of a couple good places to go that are good.

Jay

snowshoe said:

I am on a search and resue team so for me I feel confident in any situation. I mainly hike solo and feel confident in myself. I also now when not to take chances. but when I do hike with others I feel more confident even if it someone new to hiking. You just have to use common sense and be prepared.

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Same here, on all you mentioned above. Often my destinations involve long solo bushwhacks. There's nothing like navigating alone with basic skills in the backcountry to build up confidence.

Sometimes I get to thinking when solo about all the decisions that I make totally on my own. Whether spending the night and deciding on just the right spot to camp, or sitting down for a 5 minute rest break, there isn't anyone else there or that I've seen all day to influence my decisions or prevent me from making any changes at any moment (within the bounds of my itinerary at home of course). There are higher level thinking decisions, involving observational navigation for instance that I get to discuss with myself and ponder at length. At the other end of the spectrum I am amazed at the subconscious decisions made with every step, particularly on difficult terrain. My feet somehow decide (computer processing?) within a split second where to land among the rocks and branches without a conscious thought other than to choose an acceptably safe if not the best spot. You just think differently, more deeply, when solo. Maybe I think too much about such philosophical things when solo that never enter my mind when with others.

Something to consider - getting injured when solo is a dangerous thing to have happen for sure. But when not solo people tend to take more risks and weigh them differently without even thinking (for example, jumping down off a rock I would not do solo but might in a group). So I think the chances for injury during a trip with 2 or more people more than doubles. Of course that's offset by the chance for successful rescue.

coldfeet said:

...but on a bushwack I'm no help at all....is a GPS the answer?...I'm sure the real hikers will say "no"....read the map, study the compass and learn it that way...sorry guys, easier said than done....

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Although I am not myself a GPS toter, I would not begrudge someone with me from using one as a navaid. If they are not feeling very proficient with traditional map & compass and terrain association observation skills, I'd offer to make improving those skills one of the goals of the trip. If on the other hand they feel that carrying a GPS alone is enough and therefore don't "need" any map & compass skills to get my injured butt out of the woods, then I guess I'd rather not have someone with that thought process along at all.

I'll second the orienteering. IMO, much better to work with map&compass THEN to move to GPS, than the other way around. I'll bet there are orienteering clubs in your area, and they probably have (at least) monthly events. The evnets consist of giving you a map which indicates where there are 'markers' Your job is to find the markers. They usually have easy routes (where themarkers are just off a path), and more difficult, where you have to bushwhack some distance. You will also have to make decisions... "It's only one third the distance if I bushwhack, but will the bushwhack be slower than taking the trail?"

Orienteering is a very good way to improve your map&copass skills.

I never thought of depending on a hiking partner, mostly because my first 20 years or so of hiking was all solo. When I'm with someone, I think of it more as taking a walk with them, not much more.

But now you've made me think.. If someone is hiking with me, are they putting faith in me knowing what I'm donig???!!!! Scarey thought! hmmmmm Maybe I'll write up a disclaimer and make people sign it before they hike with me.

Pete_Hickey said:

But now you've made me think.. If someone is hiking with me, are they putting faith in me knowing what I'm donig???!!!! Scarey thought! hmmmmm Maybe I'll write up a disclaimer and make people sign it before they hike with me.

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That is a very scary thought, and is why any licensed guide for hire will have insurance and a "hold harmless" form to sign. The ADK makes everyone sign a disclaimer on club published trips even though no one is being paid to lead. These days if you are considered "expert" at anything even if unofficially so and something happens to go wrong you can expect there are those out there after a fast buck from you.

Aside from when I go solo, I have two different "groups" that I generally hike with. In both groups, I'm the best navigator, and have lead the way off-trail a couple of times. In general, however, both groups are hiking on established trails so we don't worry too much about getting lost. I learned the compass work in Scouts and have tried to keep my edge over the years even though I don't use the compass all that much.
As far as injury is concerned, I've got medical professionals in both groups; a PA in group 1 and a doctor and PA in group 2. (I'm certified in first aid and CPR as well.)
The guys in group 2 are overall more experienced hikers, three of them are 46ers, so I have alot of faith in their capabilities.
I'm closer to the guys in group 1, my brother, his brother-in-law, my cousins and a couple of good friends, but they're not as experienced in the backcountry. For sheer guts and determination, I'd put group 1 up against anyone for getting me out of a bad spot. I trust those guys with my life.

It is very important that whenever you head out you know the skills of those you head out with. I've been in situations where I have been the most experienced, and many where I've been the least. Knowing this ahead of time definitely makes me think, and react differently (this is both good and bad...). There have been times when it has been great to be able to trust the skills of my partners. There have also been times where I've regretted that.

As far as skills go, there is nothing that can replace good map and compass skills (knowing the lay of the land helps a lot also). Reading a map of an area that you know and trying to visualize the contours, landmarks, etc really help. Don't just look at a map: READ it. You will be amazed at what you see. Practice pinpointing wheer you are by triangulation (i.e. when you can see 3 distant objects, try to plot a straight line to your position. Where the 3 lines meet is where you are! This takes practice, but eventually you will get very good at knowing where you are, even before looking at the map.) When I am going to a new area, I read the map in advance, imagining what will come ahead. I fail miserably at imagining the views, but do well at knowing what the trail/route will feel like.

Mapping software has helped me. I always had trouble with declination. Now I just print my maps oriented to Magnetic North. that's one thing that you might try initially. BUT, learn how to calculate declination offset! "Commercial" maps orient to True North.

And Audrey gave you the best advise here, without even realizing it: you are never as good as you think you are. That's why she has never gotten lost

I have had the benefit of hiking with a lot of knowledgeable people who know a lot more than I do. As I have gained experience I have become more skilled. It is very important to hike with people that you are comfortable with - people who would turn around when necassary, not push on foolishly, watch the time and weather, etc. I have seen a few people that I would not hike with again - needless risk takers, taking people beyond their comfort zones. It goes beyond oreinteering as well - how prepared are you to spend the night? What would you do if someone was sick or injured? Better to have an idea in your head of how to handle the situation than to wing it when it happens. The more I hike the more I know there will eventually be a situation - I even thought it was happening last weekend, but we were able to make it out.
The people I hike with regularly are a good mix/fit for me.

SherpaKroto said:

Practice pinpointing wheer you are by triangulation (i.e. when you can see 3 distant objects, try to plot a straight line to your position.

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Finding 3 suitable distant objects at useful angular separations outside of wide open mountainous areas is a rare bonus. As you said, you get 3 crossing "lines of position". One of those LOPs is redundant, but a good check that you are correct with the other two. You only really need 2 LOPs to define where you are, especially if you have been keeping up with terrain reading with the map as you go. Best accuracy is if the two are separated in angle close to 90 degrees.

In practice, much of the time you only need to see one distant object LOP, the other crossing LOP may be right at your feet in the form of a stream, lakeshore, long linear ridge or ravine, treeline, etc. There is a tremendous amount of additional information out there if you look for it.

and... Yes I couldn't agree more with you about reading the map, absolutely do that map study before you go!

Lawn Sale said:

I am very adept at the map & compass, having taught it in the military and for part of a state hunter safety course, so I am confident in my abilities should I run into any particularly tough paper bags, or the elusive multi-layered plastic bags.

But, I almost prefer to hike alone. I have no set pace, it varies with the day, and I dislike hiking to a schedule. I don't mind hiking with other people, and do enjoy the company...most of the time, but it's much different from having a hiking partner.

I guess I would say my two hiking partners are "myself" and "I", and they join "me" every time. I know I can rely on them in a pinch, and they've never let me down. We have the same likes and dislikes, and chat openly with one another. We're getting to know each other better over the last few years since the divorce, but it's been a long process.

I have been let down by too many other people, so it's hard for me to completely trust someone else. I have to while ice climbing, but that's vastly different from hiking.

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Not sure if you are aware LawnSale, but I am a Nationally Registered Paramedic who has extensive wilderness medicine experience and training (Wilderness Paramedic), extensive search training, extensive navigational training and experience and extensive backcountry & technical rescue training and experience (and extensive structural and wildland firefighting, confined space, hazardous materials---in case we fall off a 4000 footer into a vat of something nasty -, leadership, incident command, professional mechanic experience and skills).








and I have admirable welding skills!

and to answer the question, NOW I am confident in them, since I have been hiking with LawnSale!

Nessmuk said:

said, you get 3 crossing "lines of position". One of those LOPs is redundant,.

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NOt redundant if two of them are 180 degrees apart.

All skills can go out the window in an emgergency/survival situation. Panic has been known to kick in making one disbelieve thier compass and map. I have heard it called map bending. I have read of people smashing thier compass out of frustration because it was "wrong"

A good person to be in the woods with will be able to make a mental map as they go, stopping every so often to look behind them so they know what the woods will look like on the return. And when things get tough, sit down and stay calm. Panic kills. (I wonder if Panic and Cotton can unite to form deadly alliance?)

Puck said:

And when things get tough, sit down and stay calm. Panic kills.

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Panic happens, the key is learning how to control it. It depends on the situation as to what type of control you need. While the Full Stationary Panic is usually best, most times it really helps to be versed in, and make sure your partners are also skilled in, the "The Modified Stationary Panic" (see Dr. McManus's excellent journal article on this procedure). At other times, it may be critical for the scare-ee to put as much distance as possible between themselves and the scare-er. In this case you should be certified in the Full Bore Linear Panic technique.

And yes, I do trust myself and most of my partners in being able to get ourselves out of the woods. Most of us are competent in the use of map/compass and GPS. We are also certified in WFA. If only I could figure out how to get my son to be able to tell up from down without watching which way his spit falls, I could say all my partners.

Tony

Pete_Hickey said:

NOt redundant if two of them are 180 degrees apart.

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hmmm, not sure what you mean there Pete. You gain no new useful LOP information from the second object 180 degrees away from the first. You might gain confidence that you haven't made an object identification error when combined with other terrain observation clues, but no new position info is gained from the second 180 angle-only measurement. A single straight LOP is all you get from either one by itself, or from both observations combined together.

If you can reliably estimate a relative distance between the two, that could be one more helpful, though rough, clue. Use everything ya got.