Kick Steps?

I've seen people mention Kick Steps recently, twice, both, I think, in New England. Having not hiked in snow in the Whites very often, I'm curious about this. I don't think I've ever seen steps kicked into trails in the ADKs or Catskills.

Is this (still?) a common practice in the Whites?

I was taught that in my first mountaineering class, so as far as I am concerend, its proper technique on steeper terrain. Its common on the bigger mountains, wash, adams, jefferson, etc..

And I was taught it by my favorite and best mountaineering guide, who taught me all kinds of techniques to save energy and be efficient while climbing & at the same time guarding clothing (and flesh!) from crampon slicing and dicing.

Step-kicking --

A time-honored mountaineering technique for steep snow ascents.

After the leader, it is everyone's responsibility to use the steps and enlarge them if possible, to make it easier and safer for the next party.

But, the propensity many folks have for butt-sliding down steep trails in the Whites usually destroys any advantage well-crafted steps might provide for the next ascentionist, leaving only a glazed chute requiring crampons.

Pity,

cb

I kick steps as much as I can. Unless it's pure ice I'm walking on (or really windy) it's more efficient and faster to leave the crampons off- And yep, learned it on a mountaineering course.

But if you don't feel safe on your feet then by all means crampon-up.

ADKs require snowshoes with more than 8" of snow - so that explains the lack of kicked steps.

Tom Rankin said:

I've seen people mention Kick Steps recently, twice, both, I think, in New England. Having not hiked in snow in the Whites very often, I'm curious about this. I don't think I've ever seen steps kicked into trails in the ADKs or Catskills.

Is this (still?) a common practice in the Whites?

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I don't ever hear of this as a norm. Heck, it's hard enough to get people in the ADKs/Catskills to use snowshoes, you expect to tell them where/how to walk? Of course, in the catskills, it's only recently where we've even had enough snow to kick steps in!!!

Jay

everytime I hear of people beating up the trails here, I just have to laugh and think of the glissade chutes I have seen out west on the cascade volcanoes, glissade chutes with 2 foot walls for 100's of feet. they were so huge on shasta, you get in them and climb in them. like a freaking luge track.

giggy said:

like a freaking luge track.

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or a nalgene track

Jay

cbcbd said:

ADKs require snowshoes with more than 8" of snow - so that explains the lack of kicked steps.

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In deep snow you can kick steps with snowshoes too, obviously easier with some models. However they nearly always get ruined sliding down.

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment...

If a trail is steep enough to require kick-steps, how would one descend it without butt-sliding? Should they try to fit their heel into the toe part of the kick-step? We all know that when descending there is more force and momentum being placed on the impact foot - this would effectively ruin the kick-step by blowing out the bottom of it. There is also potential for postholing while going downhill - very dangerous, too. Should they wear snowshoes and pray that the front points catch on the non-kick-step section, effectively meaning you're going downhill on your tiptoes?

In this instance, IMHO, glissading or butt-sliding is the safest way down. Check out the Hancocks for a good example of this in the Whites. If you can recommend a safe way to descend without flattening out someone's kick-steps, I'm all ears. (Not to say that I am a serial butt-slider, but I will on occasion slide down East Osceola, the Hancocks, Liberty Springs, North Kinsman, and sometimes Valley Way.)

albee said:

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment...

If a trail is steep enough to require kick-steps, how would one descend it without butt-sliding? ...

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Back down, toes in the steps. This also has the advantage of keeping you in the best position to self-arrest.
This is the safest way to descend truly steep slopes. For most places in the NE, butt-sliding has the advantage of being fun

Oldsmores said:

Back down, toes in the steps. This also has the advantage of keeping you in the best position to self-arrest.
This is the safest way to descend truly steep slopes. For most places in the NE, butt-sliding has the advantage of being fun

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Backing down also (usually) is the safest and least taxing way to descend steep places in the other three seasons. Not the fastest or most exciting; just easiest on the bod and safest. This lesson is driven home to me more clearly each year I hike!

G.

I'll admit that I didn't think about walking backwards down the steps.

I even had to descend a steep glacier in NZ (Copland Pass) in this method once but there weren't kick-steps in place already and the ice axe was used on every step as a handhold. I would never have butt-slid there!

I still maintain that in the Whites or Daks in winter, butt-sliding is often safer than walking downhill backwards... you could trip, lose your balance, catch a crampon, trip over a root, back into somebody's face, accidentally step in yellow snow... but I respect the opinions of others.

yea - I had to downclimb most of right gully last year late season - typically you can plunge step right down it, glissade or whatever.

Most of lunch rocks were big time exposed, and a fall or whatever would have a problem. So - decide to play it safe - it was real slick that day and couldn't kick steps at all - left the crampons on and downclimbed it - took forever to get down..................haven't been down it that many times(3 or 4), but the times before were much much eaiser - just one of them days.. should have climbed back up it and went down lions head. but - kept thinking - ok few more steps and it will get better - never did..................if I glissaded down and lost control, I would been smashed too bits in the rocks.

I also think last year, it was steeper than most due to less snow. not sure on that, but it looked it when i went down it.

albee said:

If a trail is steep enough to require kick-steps, how would one descend it without butt-sliding?

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At this point it should be assumed that you have and have been using an ice axe (steep, snow/ice, chance of sliding). One could descend by bending down, plunging your ice axe low, and then stepping on the kicked steps past the ice axe - and repeat. If that seems too scary to you then you can face the slope, place the axe low (plunge or dagger), and move down past it on your toes.

Also, since we're talking about kicking steps - please realize that in most situations the best way to kick steps in hard snow is with the foot sideways, not with the toe of your boot. This gives you a better platform to stand on and doesn't fatigue your calves as much - and it should make descending easier. If you can kick your whole foot into the snow and make a solid hole then by all means do it.
...it pains me to see 1" deep X 2-3" wide kick steps on hardpack because the person was kicking their toes into the slope.

My apologies... I didn't realize until now that most people in this thread were discussing mountaineering techniques. I've been thinking in terms of regular hiking trails all along. Sorry about that!

Of course when you're climbing or descending with an ice axe and crampons, you wouldn't want to butt-slide. (Never butt-slide with crampons on, duh!) "Downclimbing" and being prepared for self-arrest are obviously more in order.

albee said:

Of course when you're climbing or descending with an ice axe and crampons, you wouldn't want to butt-slide. (Never butt-slide with crampons on, duh!) "Downclimbing" and being prepared for self-arrest are obviously more in order.

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Although it's not good to glissade with crampons, having your axe out to control speed and then self-arrest to stop is good karma.


edit: also, below treeline there is nothing wrong with using trees on the way down - that way you don't even really need great steps if you can hold on to the trees. Besides, no one said you have to glissade or walk all the way down - I've butt-slid short portions of trails (~6')just because it was safer and faster for that small section.

Ive kicked some steps on Washingtons various routes over the years, but its a skill thats not needed so much in the east. When I started on the 14ers in CO and the Sierras I had to kick an unbelieveable amount of steps on really long snow slopes, because I climb alot very early in the spring, to jump start the climbing season. Its a good skill to have but I will say this, I would rarely climb back down slopes facing in, reuseing steps as someone suggested earlier, that would be a slow descent and its a very precarious way to climb imo. I would either bash my heels or glissade if conditions allowed. I rather face a descending slope looking out, if I trip Im ready to self arrest and I can see whats going on below me.

heelbashing on the way down , AKA plunge stepping also a technique, with or without axe depending on terrain.

"I'll admit that I didn't think about walking backwards down the steps.

I even had to descend a steep glacier in NZ (Copland Pass) in this method once but there weren't kick-steps in place already and the ice axe was used on every step as a handhold. I would never have butt-slid there! "

Albee-When were you in NZ?
I did the Copland Track twice in the 80's - from Hooker to the West Coast. Both times I used crampons and an ice axe up the snow face, but I saw people just booting it in the steps. If you were coming from West to East, glissading would definite put you at risk-there's no runout, as you probably remember. From East to West, if I remember right, there wasn't much snowpack on the west face and you could climb down fairly easily. We wound up sliding down the scree in big steps.

From what I have read, glacier retreat and avalanches have cut Hooker Hut off and the only way over now is further North, then cut back to the track.