Fill in your divots!

Imagine if the Internet had been around when Sherpa Snowshoes hit the Market!

forestgnome said:

MSR-type snowshoes DO NOT create a perfect surface for all others who follow.

Click to expand...

Yawn...

There is no reason to single out MSRs--most snowshoes on the market these days are narrow. The reason that hikers can get away with small low-flotation snowshoes is the high traffic results in the vast majority of trails being broken out and packed before one gets there. And smaller snowshoes are lighter...

Back in the "good old days" when I started winter hiking there were a lot fewer people out there and we had to expect to break out the trails. Larger snowshoes were more efficient and we had to hike in groups to have enough manpower to do the job. FWIW, I have a perfectly good pair of 13x28 flat bearpaws that I haven't used in a while.

So blame the narrow-trench trails on winter hiking being too popular and hikers wanting lighter-weight gear.

Doug

DougPaul said:

...Back in the "good old days" when I started winter hiking there were a lot fewer people out there and we had to expect to break out the trails.

Click to expand...

At least you didn't say it was uphill both ways ...

What you didn't mention was those beautiful old Tubbs didn't stay on very well, flopped around, and had no crampons so going uphill was challenging.

I gave my wooden Tubbs to the GMC some years ago for an auction. Am pretty sure they're mounted over someone's fireplace.

DougPaul said:

Back in the "good old days" when I started winter hiking there were a lot fewer people out there and we had to expect to break out the trails.

Click to expand...

Kevin Rooney said:

At least you didn't say it was uphill both ways ...

Click to expand...

It is still uphill both ways...

What you didn't mention was those beautiful old Tubbs didn't stay on very well, flopped around, and had no crampons so going uphill was challenging.

Click to expand...

I didn't say that because none of it was true (except maybe the beautiful part). They were made by Snowcraft (of Norway, Maine), stayed on well and didn't flop around because I used a properly-adjusted modified Howe binding, and had crampons mounted on them. (Wooden frame, neoprene and nylon decking and bindings.)

No, their traction isn't as good as my MSRs, they are heavier, and they don't fit in modern narrow snowshoe trenches. But I still prefer the modified Howe bindings to the MSR bindings. And they are much quieter on crusty snow...

Doug

Come to think about it, they were made by Snowcraft in Maine. I believe that Tubbs was in Maine before it sold & moved to VT (and now to China as part of K2).

I upgraded the bindings also, but as I was new to winter hiking, didn't know what to get, so those replacements weren't much better. Life got in the way about then, so put most of that aside while my son was growing up. For winter entertainment it was either occasional downhill skiing, as during a couple of consecutive snow-less years (snowmaking was in its infancy) I bought an Ice Skimmer 45 (one person iceboat) and screamed around Shelburne Pond and the bays on Champlain. Topped out at 60 knots, which is really flying when your butt is 6" off the ice and you're trying to miss holes/debris left by ice fishermen.

Kevin Rooney said:

I upgraded the bindings also, but as I was new to winter hiking, didn't know what to get, so those replacements weren't much better.

Click to expand...

IIRC, the modified Howes were the only bindings I ever used on the snowshoes. (One bought the snowshoes, the bindings, and crampons separately back then. There were purpose-built crampons available or one could use a half boot crampon.)

I started winter hiking by going to the winter school taught by my college outing club. This had the advantages of good advice on equipment and access to rental equipment.

Doug

DougPaul said:

Back in the "good old days" when I started winter hiking there were a lot fewer people out there and we had to expect to break out the trails.

Click to expand...

Can't imagine what happened to one's carcase 12,000 years ago if you decided not to use Snowshoes. The whole Tribe must have had you for Dinner.

http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00450/snowshoes.htm

http://www.anchorage.net/1283.cfm

DougPaul said:

Yawn...

There is no reason to single out MSRs--most snowshoes on the market these days are narrow. The reason that hikers can get away with small low-flotation snowshoes is the high traffic results in the vast majority of trails being broken out and packed before one gets there. And smaller snowshoes are lighter...

Back in the "good old days" when I started winter hiking there were a lot fewer people out there and we had to expect to break out the trails. Larger snowshoes were more efficient and we had to hike in groups to have enough manpower to do the job. FWIW, I have a perfectly good pair of 13x28 flat bearpaws that I haven't used in a while.

So blame the narrow-trench trails on winter hiking being too popular and hikers wanting lighter-weight gear.

Doug

Click to expand...

I think us "older" guys can laugh at alot of these debates. I still have my wooden modified bearpaws, which I used to break out alot of 4ks and for traverses up high on the ridgelines. I actually had someone who I asked to hike this year, reply " I cant hike until I get my new MSR'S" they now own Tubs with the crampon binding, but feel they cant hike with them. Man we used to edge and crawl our way up all kinds of steep terrain with nothing but rawhide and wood stapped to out feet, crampon bindings, no such thing, you had to constantly switch from snowshoes to crampons. Those where the days.

sierra said:

I think us "older" guys can laugh at alot of these debates. I still have my wooden modified bearpaws, which I used to break out alot of 4ks and for traverses up high on the ridgelines. I actually had someone who I asked to hike this year, reply " I cant hike until I get my new MSR'S" they now own Tubs with the crampon binding, but feel they cant hike with them. Man we used to edge and crawl our way up all kinds of steep terrain with nothing but rawhide and wood stapped to out feet, crampon bindings, no such thing, you had to constantly switch from snowshoes to crampons. Those where the days.

Click to expand...

Yep! The modern gear (particularly in the modern conditions) has certainly made winter hiking easier and reduced the required skill level. But somehow we managed to do the same hikes without it...

I actually got to kick steps on my recent bushwack...

Doug

At the end of the day, I don't think it's any easier today than in the "good ol' days". With today's gear you can go alot farther in the same period of time which may actually increase the risk.

I sure don't want to go back. Anyone watch "Mad Men"? Some of the attitudes we used to take for granted absolutely make me cringe!

There's no going back.

Now that thread drift has taken its course I'll chip in.

I've been doing stuff in the outdoors for nigh on 40 years. Hiking in any season is every bit as tough now as it was then. Thanks to high tech gear I get more done but I still put out as much hard work. Now in a fourteen hour day one downright expects to do a Presi Traverse where maybe in the golden olden days (under similar conditions) a 14 hour day only got you 3 or 4 Presis.

sierra said:

I think us "older" guys can laugh at alot of these debates. I still have my wooden modified bearpaws, which I used to break out alot of 4ks and for traverses up high on the ridgelines. I actually had someone who I asked to hike this year, reply " I cant hike until I get my new MSR'S" they now own Tubs with the crampon binding, but feel they cant hike with them. Man we used to edge and crawl our way up all kinds of steep terrain with nothing but rawhide and wood stapped to out feet, crampon bindings, no such thing, you had to constantly switch from snowshoes to crampons. Those where the days.

Click to expand...

Anyone who saw Everest at the IMAX in Boston will recall the exhibit of gear that they had displayed in a side room. It seemed almost inconceivable that anyone would attempt to summit Everest utilizing such "lo tech" (to us) gear. WE are incredibly fortunate to have the best at our disposal, REI credit cards, and dividends to boot.

About 15 years+ ago, I went to spend Christmas at the AMC visitor center in Pinkham Notch. I met several old timers who were in the habit of going there every Christmas. The guys "climbed the mountain" and the wives entertained themselves in the lodge. They all had really old gear. It was like watching an old time movie but up close and personal. I have never forgotten it. They all survived, no frostbite, and returned unscathed for dinner. They owned not one piece of "modern" gear. It was most entertaining to sit and chat with them about their many hiking adventures.

I sailed classics (square rig, schooners) when I was younger and often wished to be back in the days of tea clippers and such. Now that I'm a tad older I think about it again. Yea. The old stuff was pretty neat and "men were men" but I kind of like the thought that if I broke my leg in the old days they'd likely cut it off with a shot of whiskey and a saw. In current times I can use a VHF radio or even a cell phone to call for help and, at worst, end up with a bit of a limp.

Call me a wimp. New tech ain't so bad.

Though my 'shoes are Tubbs (but fairly modern Tubbs).

Kevin Rooney said:

At the end of the day, I don't think it's any easier today than in the "good ol' days". With today's gear you can go alot farther in the same period of time which may actually increase the risk.

Click to expand...

Neil said:

Hiking in any season is every bit as tough now as it was then. Thanks to high tech gear I get more done but I still put out as much hard work.

Click to expand...

Yawn.

This is simple conservation of difficulty--modern equipment makes each unit of hiking easier, so we do more units to preserve the overall difficulty. I doubt that the capacity of the human animal has changed much.

Doug

DougPaul said:

Yawn.

This is simple conservation of difficulty--modern equipment makes each unit of hiking easier, so we do more units to preserve the overall difficulty. I doubt that the capacity of the human animal has changed much.

Doug

Click to expand...

Great thread!!!! I like that, "preservation of difficulty" - reminds me of my early winter hiking days before I discovered crampons, snowshoes, and even winter boots and gaitors I definitely didn't go as far!!!!

DougPaul said:

Yawn.

This is simple conservation of difficulty--modern equipment makes each unit of hiking easier, so we do more units to preserve the overall difficulty. I doubt that the capacity of the human animal has changed much.

Doug

Click to expand...

Some might do it to "preserve the overall difficulty" others probably do it so they can bag increasing numbers of peaks per unit time or per outing.

Give people better and better tools and they will still work just as hard but they will increase their productivity.

Other than gear it would be interesting to try and determine how improvements in nutrition and training have increased the human capacity to deal effectively with postholes.

I think you make a good point Neil, with the 'give people better and better tools and they will still work just as hard but they will increase their productivity.'

I finished my winter 4000'rs pre-Internet, when the peak you chose to bag depended on multi-day trips to break in the trail. Today's superstars of peakbagging make just as much effort, but reap a larger quantity of peaks per day as their reward.

I’ve stepped up from 30” x 9” Sherpa Bear claws to 25” x 8” Tubbs and am quite comfortable with them. I like the idea of having a larger per of snowshoes I can rely on. I also enjoy the more high tech clothing which is lighter, warmer and more protective than my older stuff. And by far I think the greatest advancement we have is the GPS. My bushwhacks are longer and more direct. Before GPS many trails remained unbroken for long periods of time because we couldn’t find the trail or we ran out of time trying to find it. Now it is much easier to locate a trail and successfully make my way to a summit.

I could debate old gear verses new gear, but I wont. To be honest when given this topic some thought, I think the commen denominator in succesfull winter hikers is drive and ambition, which in the end overcomes any gear issues. There are some guys and gals out here who hike alot and far, to be honest, I think thier success has less to do with equipment and more to do with grit. Ive always thought winter hiking was or could be an exersise in "suffer management". Owls head in a day on unbroken terrain was pain in butt back then and it still is today.

sierra said:

....I think the commen denominator in succesfull winter hikers is drive and ambition, which in the end overcomes any gear issues. There are some guys and gals out here who hike alot and far, to be honest, I think thier success has less to do with equipment and more to do with grit.

Click to expand...

This makes me think of those two Russian steeplejacks who climbed Denali a few years ago during one of the toughest parts of the winter. As I recall, the rangers didn't believe them, especially because they claimed to have done it with rubber pac boots and little technical gear. However, they changed their minds later when they found evidence they'd probably been on the summit. I guess if your daily routine is climbing church steeples in the fabled Russian winter, then Denali becomes a bit easier.