compass vs gps

[Kevin Rooney]

I wonder if we carried the question of GPS versus compasses to another level/era:

I wonder if all those men (and perhaps women) who explored the coasts of North America, like the Vikings, the Phoenicians and others who left no record; or the peoples who navigated the South Pacific from Micronesia to South America - those people had only their knowledge of the stars and constellations to guide them - how would they view the efforts/accomplishments of those who lacked knowledge of the stars but instead relied upon a mechanical device, the compass? Or, come forward in time to when the sextant was invented - would those who used only a compass for navigation regard those who used a compass AND sextant with mild distain? Would that be regarded as "un-fun"? If you made it to the West Indies with the aid of a compass would you be snubbed at Navigator's Ball?

 

[sleeping bear]

The mini's on therometers are good for when you're on the summit, and someone argues with you about which way is North.

I read in an article in Backpacker a while ago that people who compete in orienteering challenges/courses(??) just use the little mini ones. They are so good at reading the map and the landscape that they only need to know the general direction.

I would like to be that good too.

 

[Motabobo]

I wonder if we carried the question of GPS versus compasses to another level/era:

I wonder if all those men (and perhaps women) who explored the coasts of North America, like the Vikings, the Phoenicians and others who left no record; or the peoples who navigated the South Pacific from Micronesia to South America - those people had only their knowledge of the stars and constellations to guide them - how would they view the efforts/accomplishments of those who lacked knowledge of the stars but instead relied upon a mechanical device, the compass? Or, come forward in time to when the sextant was invented - would those who used only a compass for navigation regard those who used a compass AND sextant with mild distain? Would that be regarded as "un-fun"? If you made it to the West Indies with the aid of a compass would you be snubbed at Navigator's Ball?

I'll say it again; You can't be more right !

 

[DougPaul]

I wonder if we carried the question of GPS versus compasses to another level/era:

I wonder if all those men (and perhaps women) who explored the coasts of North America, like the Vikings, the Phoenicians and others who left no record; or the peoples who navigated the South Pacific from Micronesia to South America - those people had only their knowledge of the stars and constellations to guide them - how would they view the efforts/accomplishments of those who lacked knowledge of the stars but instead relied upon a mechanical device, the compass? Or, come forward in time to when the sextant was invented - would those who used only a compass for navigation regard those who used a compass AND sextant with mild distain? Would that be regarded as "un-fun"? If you made it to the West Indies with the aid of a compass would you be snubbed at Navigator's Ball?

Could go either way--in some applications, navigation is just a job, not a hobby.

Ever navigate a boat in heavy fog in tidal waters? Been there several times, once with no electronic aids. I think we would have been happy to have a GPS, had they existed at the time.

Doug

 

[dr_wu002]

Could go either way--in some applications, navigation is just a job, not a hobby.

Ever navigate a boat in heavy fog in tidal waters? Been there several times, once with no electronic aids. I think we would have been happy to have a GPS, had they existed at the time.

Doug

I think that in ancient times, navigation was solely a job/way of life/necessity and not done for fun.

The GPS/Compass issue comes down to a matter or personal preference. I can't imagine how one person can be more correct than another on it. You like it, you don't like it, you don't care, you don't know, so what?

We see again and again on this bulletin board that people have different person preferences about things. Whether it's doing lists/not doing lists; day hikes, camping, ultralight-hiking, heavy pack hiking, taking ice axe/not taking ice axe etc we all have different preferences. Some things are obvious... it's probably not good to go into the woods with no food under the assumption that you'll find undigested morsels in bear scat to snack on. But people have done the 770 without a GPS and enjoyed it. People bushwhack with a GPS and enjoy it. So what's the issue? One assumes that safety wasn't necessarily a factor for Dennis C if he hiked the 770 (he's still alive, right?) so I don't see an issue except for "I like, you like..."

That said, I appreciate various opinions a lot. I've stated mine on this subject and it's not going to change. However, I have changed/modified my opinions on other things based on some very insightful posts by members of this site.

-Dr. Wu

 

[SAR-EMT40]

I read in an article in Backpacker a while ago that people who compete in orienteering challenges/courses(??) just use the little mini ones. They are so good at reading the map and the landscape that they only need to know the general direction.

I would like to be that good too.

There are many places you don't even really need a compass. In general this is how you use an orienteering map but there are places that the terrain is so similar over the entire area that this cannot be done. Then you must use pace (distance) and direction in order to go from point to point. Also you must realize how accurate and constantly updated orienteering maps are compared to USGS maps. This makes a big difference. This is when I teach people about orienteering and bushwhacking using USGS maps I try to explain to them that orienteering is to bushwhacking what rowing is to speed boating. They are similar but knowing how to orienteer does not mean you know all about bushwhacking. There are a lot of subtleties in bushwhacking that have no consideration in orienteering. The resolution of the maps, the accuracy, the age of the maps, etc. Learning about declination, the symbols are different and it goes on and on. Bushwhacking is a different animal. Not only do I teach orienteering and land navigation and have helped make the orienteering maps and have been a map checker at adventure races but I also taught land navigation in the Army. I was an armored reconnaissance specialist (11D20) later renamed as Cavalry Scout. In the past I patrolled the Czech border so correct navigation was very important. GPS’s where just being introduced (‘77 to ‘80) and the Czech border was a dangerous place for several reasons. Obviously the two have similarities but there are enough subtle differences that one can get themselves in trouble if they don't consider them separate. At least that is my humble opinion.

Keith

 

[Remix]

I like the convenience of adding notes to way points, such as water sources and flow, great potential campsites, an odd hook in the trail, bluberries, bail outs, a rattlesnake sighting, photographs, whatever. Its like a diary without the hassle of keeping a pad of paper and pen at the ready.

I have a gps which takes a 1gb SD card, so I can save all of the stuff. Managing the information is another topic.

 

[Nessmuk]

Fundamental differences

I wonder if we carried the question of GPS versus compasses to another level/era:

I wonder if all those men (and perhaps women) who explored the coasts of North America, like the Vikings, the Phoenicians and others who left no record; or the peoples who navigated the South Pacific from Micronesia to South America - those people had only their knowledge of the stars and constellations to guide them - how would they view the efforts/accomplishments of those who lacked knowledge of the stars but instead relied upon a mechanical device, the compass? Or, come forward in time to when the sextant was invented - would those who used only a compass for navigation regard those who used a compass AND sextant with mild distain? Would that be regarded as "un-fun"? If you made it to the West Indies with the aid of a compass would you be snubbed at Navigator's Ball?

There is a huge fundamental difference in goals and purposes in the examples you cited, vs what many of us do as recreational routefinding. In the latter case, land navigation by observation of terrain is in itself a major goal and the reason to go into the woods. I don't think anyone today would deny use of GPS in performing a job outdoors requiring as much precision as you can get. Surveyors, SAR searchers, map makers, loggers, discoverers of new lands in the name of the king, or finding your way to a new place to live some one has pointed out beyond the horizon. Anyone needing to get from point A to point B by most efficient and precise means... surely should use every possible aid possible. GPS fills that need exellently.

Going to the woods and mountains "just for the fun of it" is a fairly modern concept. I don't think many Vikings or Phoenicians were having much fun out there recreating in their travels... they were exploring new lands and charting them by the most modern methods they had available. If they had GPS, sure, use it on the job, like any other tool a surveyor and map maker uses.

One might ask us then, why even use a map or compass at all, just go blindly into the woods like the first indigenous peoples did, make your own sketches of the terrain as you go (if you had the technology to do even that). Well, one answer is that it took thousands of years for inventive people moving into new areas to get there to do that. Some "modern" concessions must be made in this day and age for modern efficiency and time available. So we use the a map, a concept itself thousands of years old, and a compass not much younger. Using a compass relies on external natural forces, just as does looking up at the stars utilizes starlight. But those forces have been there a lot longer than we have existed, and are not the same as being told without effort "you are here" with human generated electronic signals.

I don't think the majority disdains the use of GPS if that is your recreational pleasure to get from A to B. It's just that there's a school of thought that there is so much more you can do with terrain observation and brain power that enhances the experience sought after, even without a compass. It's all in your perspective of the recreational experience.

 

[Nessmuk]

Ever navigate a boat in heavy fog in tidal waters? Been there several times, once with no electronic aids. I think we would have been happy to have a GPS, had they existed at the time.

Doug

One of my most memorable and enjoyable experiences was in the fog. Granted, I was on a large lake and thus I was at no time in any danger of becoming permanently "lost". My goal was a trail, 5 miles down the length of the lake. At the launch site the fog was literally as thick as it could be, I could barely see the end of my canoe. From my map I measured the course and dialed it into my compass, which I placed on the bottom of my canoe at my feet. The only navigation aid I had was the compass. For the next hour I paddled, my course based only on that compass needle. What a wonderful quiet experience that was. After a while the sun began to shine through a bit, and helped guide me on a constant angle but provided no new information. Eventually I came to the edge of an island, exactly where I had predicted. Soon after the fog burned off and revealed a new world, just before reaching my landing beach. "Not knowing" where I was made the trip challenging. Coming out where I expected to be based on such limited information made the trip rewarding.

 

[Neil]

It's just that there's a school of thought that there is so much more you can do with terrain observation and brain power that enhances the experience sought after, even without a compass. It's all in your perspective of the recreational experience.

Do you mean like the difference between drinking instant coffee with "whitener" in it versus drinking carefully selected, freshly ground (by yourself) and brewed designer coffee?

 

[Nessmuk]

Do you mean like the difference between drinking instant coffee with "whitener" in it versus drinking carefully selected, freshly ground (by yourself) and brewed designer coffee?

Yes, kind of, if you mean you actually enjoy doing the selection and preparation process as a means to eventually enjoy drinking it.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Nessmuk - My previous tougue n' cheek post seems to be misunderstood. Maybe I should resort to some of those squiggly faces.

In any case - to comment on some of your points about why people do what they do: I'm always extremely suspicious of any suggestion that somehow human nature has changed one iota in the hundreds of thousands of years (perhaps millions?) homo sapiens has wandered this planet. Certainly we've adapted to our local climates, and some are taller/shorter/darker/lighter based upon local influences, but even with the benefit of recorded history, we still make the same dumb errors/"re-discover" the same things, etc, over and over and over again. About the only thing that has changed is that we can do the same dumb things faster.

Certainly, some European exploration was done for "God and Country" and it's those expeditions which were documented and read about in history books. Undoubtably there were countless others made because we needed more land or food. But ... do I think 20th century hiking is new? No way - certainly more do it because we have more leisure time than many past generations, but people have been traveling 'just to see what was over the ridge' forever. It's in our nature.

One serious comment on the use of compass versue GPS: serveral have commented they see more terrain when using a compass, and that seems to be part of their preference. That distinction is lost on me - whether I'm using on or the other at any point in time doesn't change how much/little I'm looking at the scenery. That has more to do with my state of mind at that point in time than anything else -

 

[Nessmuk]

people have been traveling 'just to see what was over the ridge' forever. It's in our nature.

My point is... no one needs accuracy to 10 meters or better to get themselves over that ridge to see what is on the other side. Just go do it. You can tell by using your eyes alone when you are at the crest of the ridge. Upon reaching the crest you would get the same wilderness view as your ancestors.

On the other hand, if I wanted to make a map of where that ridge is in relation to the fresh water spring my family needs, or what is over the ridge and the most efficient way to tell others how to find the wonders I see in an anthill sized plot of ground without using any flowery verbal terrain following description, then I'd use a GPS to record every step.

 

[SAR-EMT40]

My point is... no one needs accuracy to 10 meters or better to get themselves over that ridge to see what is on the other side. Just go do it. You can tell by using your eyes alone when you are at the crest of the ridge.

Kind of my feeling also. I mean lets face it. The bushwhacking to a peak algorithm consists of the following. Get yourself to the base of the peak at any location. Climb until there is nothing higher than you. Congratulations, you made it.

Other forms of bushwhacking could be more difficult.

Don't get me wrong though. I enjoy using all forms of navigation. I have many maps and several compasses and more than one GPS. I fully agree with Erik Schlimmer's comment about maps being works of art. I have always loved studying and looking at maps. Old ones, new ones, it doesn't matter. I also enjoy using all forms of navigation and many times I will take the GPS but don't turn it on. Sometimes I don't even take it.

Keith

 

[DougPaul]

One of my most memorable and enjoyable experiences was in the fog. Granted, I was on a large lake and thus I was at no time in any danger of becoming permanently "lost". My goal was a trail, 5 miles down the length of the lake. At the launch site the fog was literally as thick as it could be, I could barely see the end of my canoe.

A canoe on a lake is a very different situation from a 30--40 ft sailboat on salt water (includes currents, tides, waves, rocks, shoals, other traffic, etc). Navigation, even in recreational boating, becomes serious when the consequences are serious.

The nautical navigators of yesterday may have been very skilled (and likely proud of their skills), but they paid in sunken boats and lost lives. IMO, they would have adopted modern electronic navigational tools had they been available--they certainly have now that they are available.

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The hiking that we do in the NE is recreational. A hiker has the option of carrying heavy or light and we do not decide for him whether his experience is better or worse because of his choice. Similarly, a hiker has the option of using a GPS or not and anyone else's opinion is irrelevant.

The smart navigator uses multiple information sources and integrates information from all of them. He also has to be on the lookout for failure of any of the sources and able to react appropriately.

Doug

 

[Neil]

Yes, kind of, if you mean you actually enjoy doing the selection and preparation process as a means to eventually enjoy drinking it.

Well, I really meant the quality of the product as consumed. That is, if hiking is a consumable product, an exportable good.

Here's a cool use of a gps and all the trimmings: I want to hike the Dix range as a dayhike in winter and would like to use the route up the North and South forks of the Boquet for both approach and exit. It's a long way without a marked trail and the first 2 times I went in there I ended up doing some unplanned bushwhacking. In preparation for the winter trip where time will be a very important factor I hiked up to the Grace-Carson col last November and did some planned bushwhacking. The route up the Boquet is now on my computer and has been merged with someone else's (very reliable) data from their hike over the range. (I first opened their data in another program and deleted the segments that don't interest me). The whole route has far too many trackpoints so I used yet another program to "spline" it which means the program took 1000 or so points and removed every 5th one so now I have a reasonable # of points to upload into my gps. I almost forgot, I took some pics of important landmarks and the mapping program is able to merge the timestamps on the pictures in conjunction with the timestamp of each trackpoint to place a camera icon on the map at the exact location from where each pic was taken. Click on the icon and the picture fills the screen.
Pretty neat eh?

What will I do if the gps system gets shut down while I'm doing the hike? Uh, are you busy that weekend Paul?

 

[Nessmuk]

A canoe on a lake is a very different situation from a 30--40 ft sailboat on salt water (includes currents, tides, waves, rocks, shoals, other traffic, etc). Navigation, even in recreational boating, becomes serious when the consequences are serious.

Geeze, in no way was I comparing my canoe in the fog experience with a dangerous coastal fogbound situation requiring all the navigational aids possible for safety and survival. Purely by your mention of navigating in the fog in a prior post, I was keyed to a very memorable and pleasurable experience I had in simple and ideal conditions, not off a stormy Maine coast. I thought I'd share that particular experience, that's all.

 

[cushetunk]

The hiking that we do in the NE is recreational. A hiker has the option of carrying heavy or light and we do not decide for him whether his experience is better or worse because of his choice. Similarly, a hiker has the option of using a GPS or not and anyone else's opinion is irrelevant.

Using another imperfect analogy (in good fun)... the rock climbing we do in the NE is recreational. A climber has the option of using aid or free climbing the route. Perhaps I love climbing, but just can't get up those fun 5.11 pitches without a little help. So I hang on a cam a few times and occasionally use etriers. No rock was damaged. Everyone had a good time. Besides, I don't want to climb easier routes, they are boring.

But hey, why won't anyone call me a 5.11 climber?

 

[Nessmuk]

I took some pics of important landmarks and the mapping program is able to merge the timestamps on the pictures in conjunction with the timestamp of each trackpoint to place a camera icon on the map at the exact location from where each pic was taken. Click on the icon and the picture fills the screen.
Pretty neat eh?

Ayup, it is very neat indeed. There's nothing wrong with the way you use natural navigation clues and technology in my book. I also make digital slide shows of my trips, a little more crudely I must admit, though I still know where every photo was snapped. I understand you know what you are doing, Neil, and appreciate your methods because you are so complete in integrating appreciation of technology and traditional methods to include all your natural surroundings have to offer. You enjoy the pursuit of technology without forgetting the simpler joys of skilled experience. I get plenty of high technology gee whiz stuff at work to play with. I find joy and prefer to take less, but what I feel is an adequate amount of tools and knowledge with me outdoors.

 

[Neil]

I get plenty of high technology gee whiz stuff at work to play with. I find joy and prefer to take less, but what I feel is an adequate amount of tools and knowledge with me outdoors.

Very interesting. Being a chiropractor I work with only my brain and hands all day long integrating very high tech knowledge with basic hands-on healing. Exactly the opposite of you. Over the past year I've been having lots of fun integrating the new techie stuff with the hands on M&C "buggy whip" stuff. Very interesting indeed!