Fitting crampons on non-technical boots

[sardog1]

First, a mini history lesson. Crampons used to be the tools of technical climbers, who wore boots designed for crampons and who were generally instructed in the proper fitting and marriage of the two.

Then outerwear and base layers got a whole lot lighter, warmer, and drier, which enabled many non-climbers to venture into the winter mountains and thus inevitably onto steep, icy terrain. These folks saw the benefits of crampons but they were disinclined to walk long distances in extremely stiff, heavy climbing boots. (Yeah, I know, climbing boots have changed a lot, but we're on a history lesson right now, not a product safari.)

So the hiking crowd started wearing crampons with non-technical winter boots like Sorels, Bugaboos, Chilkats, etc. This worked some of the time with some crampons, but there was often a problem. A rigid crampon does not do well in a marriage with a flexible sole -- think of John Gielgud being married to Madonna. Eventually the crampon will break at the bar joining heel and toe.

Some tried the solution of allowing one end of the bar to act as a hinge, which sort of worked but often not for a long period of use. So the crampon makers innovated in response to growing demand for their products. They started making crampons with two flexible pieces of spring steel, one lying atop the other. This mostly eliminated the bar breakage.

Yet still there was not happiness in the mountains sometimes. Non-technical winter boots frequently have a largish, oafish heel to them (not to mention the oafish feel to them ...) This means that crampon heel attachments frequently do not fit properly on such boots. Either the heel is too wide, or the occasional snowshoe lip on the back of the heel gets in the way.

Why should you care about any of this as a first-time crampon buyer? Because crampons are life-saving equipment. When they don't fit well, they can come off at the most inopportune moment, i.e., when you're on an icy slope that makes you clench just a little bit. "Fit well" means that you can hold the crampon and boot upside down while the boot stays in the crampon, without benefit of help from you or the binding strap.

TAKE THE BOOTS WITH YOU WHEN YOU BUY THE CRAMPONS. You and your kin will be a whole lot happier with the outcome.

 

[vegematic]

Great history lesson and advice! I've definitely been tempted to try and duct-tape those things onto some more comfy boots but 'twould defeat the purpose of having them in the first place.
-vegematic

 

[--M.]

This is great stuff and reminds me of a growing need on these boards: tech advice for neophytes. We're all neophytes at something, and an advice column in various specialties would be a great value. I think I'll recommend/start one elsewhere.

I'm also continually amazed at the transformation in winter hiking. When I first got into hiking as a kid (in the seventies), winter hikes were commented on in the press in only two ways: either stories of expeditions to the weather station atop the rockpile, or disaster tales of the strayed. Now, LOTS of people are up there and it's been largely demystified. I think downhill skiing must have a lot to do with this, as it allows people to be at the top of alpine areas with limited risk.

That unwashed civilians can now use crampons on a regular basis says a lot about our fledgling pursuit.

Great thread (at least until I got ahold of it),

--M.

 

[sleeping bear]

A few days ago I purchased my first pair of crampons...

A short history lesson- I moved here in June from Michigan- MI highest point one thousand nine hundred and some odd feet, with a wonderful view of... the forest all around you!

...anyway, I bought the Black Diamond "Contact Strap" model at REI for 99 bucks. They fit very securely to my Vasque Sundowners and my mushy blister-causing Columbia Excellerators. I'm taking for a test run tomorrow, but a very vigorous shake test couldn't serperate boot from crampon.

 

[Inventor]

Thank you for an excellent post... and more importantly for your assistance with the Grivel G10Ws last Saturday! It is much appreciated. If all goes well, they'll be taking me to the top of Lafayette on Sunday.

 

[John S]

A few days ago I purchased my first pair of crampons...... I bought the Black Diamond "Contact Strap" model at REI for 99 bucks. They fit very securely to my Vasque Sundowners and my mushy blister-causing Columbia Excellerators. I'm taking for a test run tomorrow, but a very vigorous shake test couldn't serperate boot from crampon.

That’s too funny. For the same Columbia boot, I ended up with the G10Ws after I couldn’t get a solid fit from the BD Contact Straps. Just another reason to bring your boots when crampon shopping.

Good luck with the test – you’re gonna love walking on crampons!

 

[MikeOneill]

A few days ago I purchased my first pair of crampons...

A short history lesson- I moved here in June from Michigan- MI highest point one thousand nine hundred and some odd feet, with a wonderful view of... the forest all around you!

Hey, just have to say hello from a fellow ex-Michigander. I came to NYC in 1982, so I'm just getting used to New York.

I'm wondering, your name, sleeping bear, that wouldn't be a reference to some kind of dunes would it?

Anyway, not to get off topic, so I have to say something about crampons. I'm bringing mine tomorrow to the Catskills, if I go.

 

[sleeping bear]

I'm impressed, you got it, sleeping bear national lakeshore- gigantic mountains of sand- no need for crampons there...

 

[kerry13]

Great information/thread Sardog1. Wish I had waited a couple weeks. I have a few questions re crampons for all you seasoned veterans out there. I am just getting into winter hiking so I didn't want to bust the bank with plastics. I went with North Face Baltaro 400 (-40). I purchased a pair or 10 pt from EMS a few days later for $90 and after getting them home I found I wasn't comfortable with the way they fit. The boot toe on the crampon seemed to be too pointed to adequately, for my comfort, wrap my boot toe securely and the heal strap, as you noted didn't even come close to the moulded ridge of the boot and I thought it would certainly come loose under the right condition.

Anyway I returned the crampon and brought my boots with me this time. The only other crampon EMS had was Petzl charlet-12. They fit my boots well. Heal and toe of crampon are much better designed and securely hold my boot. Passing of a shake test in the house is not my idea of field testing. I am confident the crampon will stay on the boot. I am not so confident about the tongue connecting the two halves.

My questions: 1. According to Mounteering 7th edition the Petzl would be classified a semi rigid. Is everyone else who is using soft winter boots using a hindged crampon or semi rigid?

2. Where can I get hinged crampons if the consensus says I should be using hindged? EMS Peterborough and online doesn't seem to carry them nor have I seen them in Campnor. REI?

3. How long can I expect the tongue to last before it breaks? I don't like the idea of even using them knowing they will eventually fail. I am a firm believer in Murphy's Law of conincidence.

Any other suggestions, helpful hints, rcommendations would be greatly appreciated. I certainly appreciate all the wisdom and experience you all have accumulated over the years and so willingly share.

 

[MikeOneill]

Great information/thread Sardog1. Wish I had waited a couple weeks. I have a few questions re crampons for all you seasoned veterans out there. I am just getting into winter hiking so I didn't want to bust the bank with plastics. I went with North Face Baltaro 400 (-40). I purchased a pair or 10 pt from EMS a few days later for $90 and after getting them home I found I wasn't comfortable with the way they fit. The boot toe on the crampon seemed to be too pointed to adequately, for my comfort, wrap my boot toe securely and the heal strap, as you noted didn't even come close to the moulded ridge of the boot and I thought it would certainly come loose under the right condition. . . . . .

Not being a seasoned veteran, I can't answer your questions from experience, and that's really what you need. But I did a little research no these points for you, and google told me that a fellow member werdigo49 just bought the same boots as you, so maybe he can give you some insights.

Here's a review of the Grivel G-10s that might help you:

http://www.backpackgeartest.org/rev... Crampons/Grivel G-10 Crampons Owners Review/

They're classified as semi-rigid, but seem to work well with all kinds of boots.

Your boots seem to have a little more curve in the sole than most, at least that's how the pictures look, so I can see how you might be concerned about the flex in the crampons. I have the charlet moser 12 pts myself but I have plastic boots, so that's not really an issue.

 

[DougPaul]

Passing of a shake test in the house is not my idea of field testing. I am confident the crampon will stay on the boot.

Consider passing the (strapless) shake test necessary but not sufficient.

If the crampons fail the test, they will very likely fall off in the field. If they pass, they can still fall off, but are less likely to do so.

Doug

 

[John S]

...... I am not so confident about the tongue connecting the two halves.

My questions: 1. According to Mounteering 7th edition the Petzl would be classified a semi rigid. Is everyone else who is using soft winter boots using a hindged crampon or semi rigid?

2. Where can I get hinged crampons if the consensus says I should be using hindged? EMS Peterborough and online doesn't seem to carry them nor have I seen them in Campnor. REI?

3. How long can I expect the tongue to last before it breaks? I don't like the idea of even using them knowing they will eventually fail. I am a firm believer in Murphy's Law of conincidence.....

Note Sardog1’s fourth and fifth paragraphs above.

I’ve used the Grivel 10Ws with flex bars on similar rubber-bottomed boots with good results. The two thin pieces allow for some slight stress-absorbing motion between the two and the flex is amazing – the heal and toe can be bent ninety degrees and they spring right back to flat. They’re also available in a wide version with bigger heal and toe harnesses to accommodate the wider rubber bottoms. They also work well with plastics.

They are a little harder to find lately but still listed on the Grivel website, which also lists local dealers. I've seen one other brand with flex bars but can't remember the name.

 

[Lawn Sale]

I have a set of Petzl 10 point strap-on crampons I use for hiking, and they can be either semi-rigid or hinged, depending on how I set the joining bar. So far no problems and no apparent fatigue on the crampons and they are very comfortable on my Merrell's or the more rigid Danner's.

 

[sardog1]

I've seen one other brand with flex bars but can't remember the name.

C.A.M.P. (Italian acronym for maker's name) makes crampons with flexible bars. There might be others as well.

 

[kerry13]

Thanks all for the info. I have gone to the Grivel and CAMP sites and what I find for hindged and simi-hindged appear to be the same arrangement as my Petzl. I still am not real comfortable with the strips for the hindge. The multitude of holes for adjustment just appear to establish countless points for eventual fracture. There is fairly good lateral movement of the two pieces, but not much vertical movement, not that my Baltaro boots flex substantially. I would just think that a two piece crampon connected with a replaceable nylon strap would offer the flexibility needed for any flexible boot and the inspection and repair would be fairly easy. I certainly will be carrying a few substantial wire ties in my pack for the eventual failure I anticipate. Thanks again.

 

[MikeOneill]

Thanks all for the info. I have gone to the Grivel and CAMP sites and what I find for hindged and simi-hindged appear to be the same arrangement as my Petzl. I still am not real comfortable with the strips for the hindge. The multitude of holes for adjustment just appear to establish countless points for eventual fracture. There is fairly good lateral movement of the two pieces, but not much vertical movement, not that my Baltaro boots flex substantially. I would just think that a two piece crampon connected with a replaceable nylon strap would offer the flexibility needed for any flexible boot and the inspection and repair would be fairly easy. I certainly will be carrying a few substantial wire ties in my pack for the eventual failure I anticipate. Thanks again.

Hey, take a look at this thread, there's a discussion of your boots and crampons.

http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10526&page=1&pp=15

And recently came across this link for flexible crampons. These just might be what you're looking for:

http://www.adventureracingconcepts.com/prod/trek/shoe/shoedetailpages/kahtoolasteelkts.html

 

[sleeping bear]

...anyway, I bought the Black Diamond "Contact Strap" model at REI for 99 bucks. They fit very securely to my Vasque Sundowners and my mushy blister-causing Columbia Excellerators. I'm taking them for a test run tomorrow, but a very vigorous shake test couldn't serperate boot from crampon.

So I hiked Monadnock today as my crampon test run. I strapped them to my Sundowners in the parking lot and took them off a half a mile before I returned to the car. I didn't have to touch them once. They couldn't have worked better.

I should have brought my Columbias to see how they'd go, but I didn't, next time.

 

[Bob Kittredge]

The other thing to remember with strap-on crampons is to stop and retighten the straps after you been walking in them 20 minutes (and probably every hour thereafter.

 

[bill bowden]

Good sense on crampons (for first timers)

Rigid boots (plastic double boots) and very heavy mountaineering boots can take a rigid crampon because there is verylittle flex in the boots. The pac boots and insulated single boots by Sorel, Columbia, etc are far more flexible and require a flexible crampon.
Yes, take your boots when you purchase and see how they fit. Also, practice putting the crampons on the boots to see how the degree of difficulty goes up with gloves and cold.
Hiking crampons work very well with wind driven snow and crusty snow-ice combinations. They work less well and are even scary with water-ice, a common encounter in the White Mountains. Good practice on descent is to use all 10 points rather than edging or (as is tempting) trying to set only the heel spikes.
Up hill hiking on crampons is deadly to the calf muscles and it is useful to change to a duckwalk and side over side hiking (feet parallel to the slope) to reduce the strain on your calves. front pointing is even more demanding and should be minimized.

 

[DougPaul]

Hiking crampons work very well with wind driven snow and crusty snow-ice combinations. They work less well and are even scary with water-ice, a common encounter in the White Mountains. Good practice on descent is to use all 10 points rather than edging or (as is tempting) trying to set only the heel spikes.

Always try place your foot flat on the surface with hiking crampons. Don't try to edge--less secure and you are likely to bend or break a point. (This is called flat-footing or French technique in ice climibing. Experts can climb up to 70deg ice using these techniques.)

[/quote]Up hill hiking on crampons is deadly to the calf muscles and it is useful to change to a duckwalk and side over side hiking (feet parallel to the slope) to reduce the strain on your calves. front pointing is even more demanding and should be minimized.[/QUOTE]
On the flats, walk with a fairly normal stride. As the slope increases, first duck walk, then turn to the side and do a rising traverse with both feet pointed to the same side (switchback as needed).

Front-pointing (requires front points on your crampons) is for steep ice, typically using two hand tools, both above your head. Not generally used by hikers. However, one or two moves on front points can be useful for surmounting a step.

There is a hybrid move that can be very useful in some places: one foot across the slope (flat footed) and the other on front points. This can be very useful for a section of 30-45 deg packed snow.

Read Chouinard's "Climbing Ice" if you want a full description of these techniques. (Chouinard's description of the techniques used on lower angle terrain is very good and can be useful to a hiker who might find a bit of snowclimbing or lower angle ice technique very useful.)

Doug