Giving way on the trail with snowshoes

[erugs]

Isn't there a rule in Vermont on when snowshoes must be worn? (Got to add another subject to this mix of the way we do things.)

 

[jfb]

Isn't there a rule in Vermont on when snowshoes must be worn? (Got to add another subject to this mix of the way we do things.)

There's a rule in Vermont that says wearing nothing is legal. I guess that covers snowshoes.

 

[skiguy]

Isn't there a rule in Vermont on when snowshoes must be worn? (Got to add another subject to this mix of the way we do things.)

....and they better be real Snowshoes. Not those weenie MSR ones that leave a really narrow track for my 30 year old Bearpaws.

 

[MichaelJ]

There's a rule not in VT but in the Adirondacks in NY that snowshoes MUST be worn with 2' or more of snow on the ground.

 

[MichaelJ]

On the last weekend of winter last year I did Whiteface and Passaconaway. Based on the conditions I'd read about from people who'd just been up there, plus the weather forecast, I wore only microspikes and left the snowshoes in the car. As you might expect, there was well over 3-4' of snow on the ground, it being mid-March. The trail, however, was packed firm and solid. I didn't produce a single posthole the entire hike. It was, to wit, wonderful; however, if I'd had to step off trail in any of the deeper sections I would have immediately sunk into the snow up to my waist. In the act of getting back up onto the trail I would have likely destroyed the nicely-packed trail. If I had been chided for that, I would have sucked it up and accepted that chiding because I deserved it for not having snowshoes on. Simple as that. I chose to not carry my snowshoes, but not carrying snowshoes in the Whites in winter is stupid and a safety risk.

One reason the posthole debate is a passionate one is because while nobody gives a damn if you (the general you, not you specifically) want to be miserable out there postholing your entire hike, you affect dozens if not hundreds of people coming along after you. You CANNOT ignore that. If you make a choice to not carry snowshoes and encounter severe postholing TURN AROUND. If you were on a road and your car started ripping a 2' deep hole in the pavement, do you think it would be right to just continue? What do you think would happen to yoif you walked up a ski slope, postholing all the way? How about if you postholed the heck out of a cross-country ski trail? Why would people who recognize these behaviors as wrong anywhere else proceed to do them on a hiking trail? It amazes me. If you choose poorly, just turn around.

Plus, every time you posthole, God kills a kitten.

 

[skiguy]

There's a rule not in VT but in the Adirondacks in NY that snowshoes MUST be worn with 2' or more of snow on the ground.

....unless your wearing skis

 

[MichaelJ]

PS - I always welcome a breather break on my ascents, but generally I just watch the oncoming traffic (in either direction) and if they don't step off, I will. No biggie.

 

[Tim Seaver]

There's a rule not in VT but in the Adirondacks in NY that snowshoes MUST be worn with 2' or more of snow on the ground.

....which applies ONLY to the High Peaks region, BTW. And even that has been successfully challenged.

the High Peaks Wilderness Area, no person shall fail to possess and use skis or snowshoes when the terrain is snow-covered with eight or more inches of snow.

There is a special hell for people who harass bare booters who are walking frozen trails, especially if you wear a funny hat

Richard Dawkins coined the word "dundridge", which fits quite well here:

A bureaucrat who heartlessly enforces the rules, regardless of how stupid or harmful they are in the circumstances.

 

[dug]

On the last weekend of winter last year I did Whiteface and Passaconaway. Based on the conditions I'd read about from people who'd just been up there, plus the weather forecast, I wore only microspikes and left the snowshoes in the car. As you might expect, there was well over 3-4' of snow on the ground, it being mid-March. The trail, however, was packed firm and solid. I didn't produce a single posthole the entire hike. It was, to wit, wonderful; however, if I'd had to step off trail in any of the deeper sections I would have immediately sunk into the snow up to my waist. In the act of getting back up onto the trail I would have likely destroyed the nicely-packed trail. If I had been chided for that, I would have sucked it up and accepted that chiding because I deserved it for not having snowshoes on. Simple as that. I chose to not carry my snowshoes, but not carrying snowshoes in the Whites in winter is stupid and a safety risk.

One reason the posthole debate is a passionate one is because while nobody gives a damn if you (the general you, not you specifically) want to be miserable out there postholing your entire hike, you affect dozens if not hundreds of people coming along after you. You CANNOT ignore that. If you make a choice to not carry snowshoes and encounter severe postholing TURN AROUND. If you were on a road and your car started ripping a 2' deep hole in the pavement, do you think it would be right to just continue? What do you think would happen to yoif you walked up a ski slope, postholing all the way? How about if you postholed the heck out of a cross-country ski trail? Why would people who recognize these behaviors as wrong anywhere else proceed to do them on a hiking trail? It amazes me. If you choose poorly, just turn around.

Plus, every time you posthole, God kills a kitten.

Aaaandd, away we go. So, as is my yearly custom, I implore the hikers of today to NOT stop at snowshoes. That's only part of the problem. Please:

-The first person up should be wearing really big ones, so it widens the trail
-The next person in line should not go in the same track. They should be alternating their steps so the track can widen
-The trail breaker after a snowstorm should be very tall. I used 6'2" previously, but there has been requests for taller people, so please accomodate
-When ascending steep areas, please kick in your steps deeply, with a standard 24-30" gait. This will allow for some very nice stairs for those behind you
-Approximately every 100 steps (on the not-so-steeps) and 50 steps (on the steeps) please have your trailbreaker stop to the side and stamp out a 4'x4' platform, which will allow for a flat surface for resting our weary thighs. And, it would resolve the issue that started this thread in the first place.

That covers my requests, and I thank you for not ruining my experience.

 

[TJsName]

Where do the sledders fit into this discussion?

I've only come across a couple people while sledding, but in general I bail off to the side and let them pass, then roll back onto the trail and keep going. Sledding with campons sounds exceptionally painful! Sledding with snowshoes is possible (at least with my Tubbs that lack edging).

Perhaps we can petition the high council to make it so when two groups meet the issue is settled via a best out of three rock-paper-scissors.

 

[TJsName]

Aaaandd, away we go. So, as is my yearly custom, I implore the hikers of today to NOT stop at snowshoes. That's only part of the problem. Please:

-The first person up should be wearing really big ones, so it widens the trail
-The next person in line should not go in the same track. They should be alternating their steps so the track can widen
-The trail breaker after a snowstorm should be very tall. I used 6'2" previously, but there has been requests for taller people, so please accomodate
-When ascending steep areas, please kick in your steps deeply, with a standard 24-30" gait. This will allow for some very nice stairs for those behind you
-Approximately every 100 steps (on the not-so-steeps) and 50 steps (on the steeps) please have your trailbreaker stop to the side and stamp out a 4'x4' platform, which will allow for a flat surface for resting our weary thighs. And, it would resolve the issue that started this thread in the first place.

That covers my requests, and I thank you for not ruining my experience.

I do my best on this. I'm 6'4", so I do my best to leave the trees snow free. My friends call me the groomer with my 36"x9" Tubbs. Feel free to follow me.

Just one question, one going down a steep section on showshoes, how do I protect the steps? Should I turn around, or try to make a second path?

 

[Tim Seaver]

Almost forgot.

If you are going to give someone a trailside lecture, it's more convincing if you wear one of these, while barking "You will respect my AUTHORITAH!":

 

[Tom Rankin]

There's a rule not in VT but in the Adirondacks in NY that snowshoes MUST be worn with 2' or more of snow on the ground.

It's actually only 8".

 

[DayTrip]

Perhaps we can petition the high council to make it so when two groups meet the issue is settled via a best out of three rock-paper-scissors.

Based on all that I've read here I think the only reasonable course of action when approaching an oncoming group is to remove my glove, slap them across the face and challenge them to a duel! The winner shall have first right of passage....

 

[DayTrip]

Almost forgot.

If you are going to give someone a trailside lecture, it's more convincing if you wear one of these, while barking "You will respect my AUTHORITAH!":

I assume this is a joke but why do I get the feeling that I will pass people with these badges pinned to their coats this winter camped out on narrow sections of trails after a fresh snow...

 

[Sunshine Chris]

Well that thread was entertaining, for sure I didn't realize how much I was missing by not being on here much since last winter. I kinda hated to see it end.

 

[JCarter]

What's all this "give way" stuff? You meet people on the trail on a beautiful snowy day, you stop and chat, talk about the weather, find out about the great view up ahead/brag about the great view you just saw.

Middle of the week is rough around here.

 

[Raven]

NH does not have a rule regarding snowshoes. NY does.

If you think NH will go in that direction, this link may be of interest. NY is perpetually the state ranked as the least free in the US of all 50. NH is consistently in the top 5 most free states. It has been #1 in the past few years. Currently #4. It is often a toss up between the top few. In the last poll, it was stated NY does not have a close second and holds that position all by itself.

http://freedominthe50states.org/

I've lived more than a decade in each state. They are vastly different.

 

[Tom Rankin]

NH does not have a rule regarding snowshoes. NY does. If you think NH will go in that direction, this link may be of interest. NY is perpetually the state ranked as the least free in the US of all 50. NH is consistently in the top 5 most free states.

It's not only about the state's mentality.

The snowshoe rule is primarily because many of the ADK trails are shared by skiers. I have done the W115, and seen very few skiers on New England trails, (aside from BSP), but in the ADKs, they are always out there.

 

[--M.]

Tim Seaver, that's awesome, Cartman rules.

When someone steps aside, one says "Thank you!" Anything else is not profitable. I'm sometimes baffled at how people miss basic etiquette.

I LOVE how things on this board can get a touch chippy and still not require intervention from the borg (my love for the administrators as individuals notwithstanding), great job, very entertaining!

I always base step-aside decisions on the local conditions, almost always looking to see if deference is the play or the anti-play. Usually, it's jeans-&-sweatshirts and noblesse oblige, but I was taught once by a pair of adolescent pit-bulls that yielding the trail is not always the right play. I now assume I own it and am at liberty to share it graciously with fellow travelers. DBs or dogs (and yes, I'm a dog owner) can respect authoritah, and I walk with trekking poles, in part (the other part is knees) to ensure personal space.

Personally, I'm not a fan of glazing trails by sledding on them. (Again, it's just one opinion, but...) I think it's worse than post-holing. A glazed trail that has actually set up into concrete is extremely difficult for any but the most talented to ascend. It immediately implies that crampons are required and, to me, means an inconsiderate clod has been there.

However, not only would I never express such an opinion on-site, but I have encountered (acclaimed, sainted, otherwise lauded) members of this very community doing it at the top of Mt. Willey and not having the first clue. We said nothing and were grateful we could descend the chute before it set up. Nearing the Ethan Pond junction, we met civilians headed up (without adequate traction) and knew they'd be screwed once they reached the glazing. We let them know and moved on. Again, just one opinion.

That said, I generally try to play it as it lies, links-style. What do you think Bobby Jones woulda thought of the Zealand-Lincoln Woods traverse? That's my role-model for trail conditions. Because one must be zen/Christ-like about these things (focus on the positive, dude) or you miss the good stuff.

San Dimas High School football rules!