Hydrofracking for natural gas in Catskills

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Peakbagr

Peakbagr

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For those who have been following this, a huge wrestling match has been going on over the last year in the southern tier of NYS between the natural gas industry and people concerned for the environment. One of the main issues has been the injection of chemical laden water into the shale found deep in the ground. Drillers inject water, sand and chemicals into deep wells in order to shatter the shale to capture natural gas. So far, the natural gas industry has been reluctant to share the makeup of those chemicals, calling the mixtures, 'proprietary'.
From experience in other states, such as PA, there is concern in NY over pollution of ground water in the NYC watershed. This is a separate issue from the new roads, heavy equipment and thousands of drillers on farms, woodlands and mountains.

The struggle is between the thousands of jobs that would be created by allowing the gas industry to start drilling on the leases they are securing and the potentially irrevocable damage to the mountains of the Catskills and NYC water supply.


The link is to a letter from scientists to Governor Cuomo cautioning that municipal treatment/filtration systems would not be able to filter water from spills, leaks or holding ponds.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/65121866/Sign-on-Letter-Final

Non political thoughts are welcome, political commentary is not.
 
Those fracking people :)

I don't know enough about this subject but I thought I read a report of fracking operations somewhere in the US where the (EPA?) required treatment of the return slurry. The town, county or state ended up funding the building a sewage treatment plant to treat this slurry.
IIRC, there was a big uproar because no one understood the process and the drilling companies forgot to mention this issue of slurry treatment/disposal prior to obtaining permits etc.

As the scientist eluded to I think there are a lot of secrets not being told in a rush to get the gas while oil prices are high and government subsidies are in place.

OTOH, this type of drilling has been going on long enough throughout the US that you would think all the secrets would have been exposed by now.

I'm sure individuals, towns and states are getting rich in areas where this is drilling is occurring so they are more than likely fat dumb and happy to any negative issues.
 
A while ago I saw the documentary Gas Land. Now, while I know to take documentary movies for what they are, a film from the point of view of the person making it (thus it has their bias to it), but it was tough to argue when he had video from multiple homes across the entire country who's drinking water became poisonous and flammable....yes, they could turn the water on from their kitchen sink and take a lighter and WHOOSH, fire. Bit of an eye opener. Needless to say I am not a fan of this concept.

Brian
 
Peakbagr said:
From experience in other states, such as PA, there is concern in NY over pollution of ground water in the NYC watershed. This is a separate issue from the new roads, heavy equipment and thousands of drillers on farms, woodlands and mountains.
Click to expand...

I'm not really as up on hydrofracking as I feel I should be, but instinctively don't like it. This article , however, makes it sound as if the NYC watershed area and thus the Catskills may well be safe from the hydrofracking industry.

The part of the debate that I've followed tends to focus on the immediate, short term effects of hydrofracking (ground water pollution, infrastructure etc) without spending much energy examining the long-term potential geological instability that could be introduced by the smashing of all this rock. I'm not a scientist so feel free to school me. :)

I thought North Dakota was awash in oil anyway (not natural gas, but whatever). I would think they'd be far more welcoming to industry of any sort than places like NY where parks and mountains are viewed as treasures away from the bustle of city life.
 
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Puma,

Just got back from and Adirondack Mt Club board meeting. The ADK has been in the forefront of fighting unregulated hydrofracking. If I understood this part of the presentation, there is a law on the NY books that states if the surrounding landowner by majority vote or lease their land for fracking, then the adjactent property owner must as well. I'll get further clarification. Further troubling is that deep drilling allows drilling on an adjacent property and then the drilling can be turned underneath adjacent property.

A point was made that with the heavy rains from tropical storm Irene, the poisonous and radioactive contents of used water in hydrofracking lagoons was swamped and overflowed in many places in PA.
 
I'm not sure where you get your drinking water from in New Jersey, but NYC water comes from the Catskill Reservoirs. I'm hoping that fact alone will protect the Catskill Mountains. I was kind of under the impression that when they made that nice blue line and called it a park that meant that this type of industry would have to stay on the other side of the line.

I haven't seen gas land, but there is a youtube video about the drilling in Pennsylvania. It makes quite an impression to see someone light their tap water with a match. There were huge issues with contaminated water on farms that leased their land and neighboring properties, concerns about large truck traffic on rural roads that weren't designed for it, the transportation of hazardous chemicals out of the state on trains that were polluting the towns they went through, and no legal recourse for people who had their properties damaged by this industry. This was a video with interviews with very middle class conservative looking people.

My 23 year old daughter just bought herself a hybrid prius and we have solar hot water (self installed), so there are affordable alternatives to fossil fuels and hopefully this will become more affordable. I figure when the sun goes we're all toast anyhow.
 
Q: If HVHF is safe for the water supplies of the nearby towns and landowner's wells, why avoid drilling near the NYC water source?
A: It's not safe, but the quest for a dollar will make some people sell their mineral/drilling rights.
 
IMHO, this is a political football in Pennsylvania with big money winning out and where environmental research and public safety are taking a backseat. The weblink below is the best summary of current Marcellus Shale issues I know of, summarized very well in the Spring 2011 issue of Pittsburgh Engineer. It has articles authored by both researchers from the University of Pittsburgh and Carnegie-Mellon Univ and from industry and engineering firms. You can make you own conclusions after reading the articles. http://www.eswp.com/PDF/Spring 2011 Pgh ENG.pdf

The primary concerns regarding hydraulic fracturing are: surface spills of fluids, well control and potential for lost containment of production, flowback water on the surface and methane migration from poorly constructed gas wells. There are of course other social, economic and policy issues related to the Marcellus Shale gas extraction business, both good and bad. See Pennsylvania Governor's Marcellus Shale Adivosry Committe Report: http://files.dep.state.pa.us/Public...haleAdvisoryPortalFiles/MSAC_Final_Report.pdf

The State and the industry need to take these matters seriously but with the fox watching the hen house...

Edward Elinski, P.E.
 
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nietzschescat said:
I'm not sure where you get your drinking water from in New Jersey, but NYC water comes from the Catskill Reservoirs. I'm hoping that fact alone will protect the Catskill Mountains. I was kind of under the impression that when they made that nice blue line and called it a park that meant that this type of industry would have to stay on the other side of the line.

I haven't seen gas land, but there is a youtube video about the drilling in Pennsylvania. It makes quite an impression to see someone light their tap water with a match. There were huge issues with contaminated water on farms that leased their land and neighboring properties, concerns about large truck traffic on rural roads that weren't designed for it, the transportation of hazardous chemicals out of the state on trains that were polluting the towns they went through, and no legal recourse for people who had their properties damaged by this industry. This was a video with interviews with very middle class conservative looking people.

My 23 year old daughter just bought herself a hybrid prius and we have solar hot water (self installed), so there are affordable alternatives to fossil fuels and hopefully this will become more affordable. I figure when the sun goes we're all toast anyhow.
Click to expand...


AFAIK, the catskill reservoirs are strickly NYC, since NJ has enough lakes and reservoirs to feed ourselves (when I lived there). The bigger cities like Newark and Jersey City own reservoirs around the highlands (West Milford, Ringwood, NJ to name a few) and in fact, when you get a hiking permit for some of the lands, you actually deal with the "city of Newark" even though you are a good 30-40 miles NW of Newark, NJ, because they technically own the land around the reservoir.

Wanaque, Canister, Clinton, all are large watersheds around the Highlands of NJ.. (and where I used to live)

Jay
 
In Penna, The energy companies have said that the mix of chemicals in the fracking liquid is "proprietary" and they cannot/willnot reveal the makeup. Initially, the fracking liquid was sent municipal sewage plants who were not equipped to handle the waste. There are some plants in Penna that were built to handle the frack liquid. Some of the companies are re-using the frack liquid too. Its hard for some people to say no to the money. Some of the counties (esp Tioga) are the poorest in the state of PA. When there is no money for heat, food, and the basic necessities of life the lease money goes a long way. In addition, motels, hotels, restaurants and bars are booming where fracking is done. I am not condoning fracking. Its just what I see when I drive through those northern tier counties.
 
When my wife and I were looking for places to move to which had a level of year-round sunshine greater than Vermont, we looked at the Durango, CO area. Until we talked with a friend who'd lived there for several years.

Many wells in the area had been polluted by energy companies, and for all intents and purposes, the landowners have no recourse. It's one thing for a town to deal with the problem of polluted ground water, but nearly impossible for a landowner on his or her own - the costs can be extraordinary. In many cases, the only solution is to haul one's own water.

If we roll the clock forward 50 or 100 years, I think we'll see large pipelines carrying water from the Canadian North down to areas where aquifers have been polluted, much like the oil pipeline being built to bring down oil from Alberta.
 
I have been told, but don't know for a fact, that some of the poorer towns in the PA fracking area have been taking used fluids, polluted and radioactive, and putting it on snowy town roads as the fluid is 10x as saline as salt water, saving the necessity of buying more road sand and salt.
 
Money and profit talks louder than conscious. I wish I could truly believe the claims that it's safe. Stuff gets lost in the noise and I am not sure who exaggerates the most. Truth is evasive and the motivation to put spin on everything is high.

"My land my minerals" has rights until your pollution runs over or under my land.

The gas they draw can come from under adjoining properties depending on the rock foundation so if I'm not drilling am I being robbed?

I wish I could trust this more. :(
 
This is odd deal if I understand it correctly.

When the federal government started buying private land on the east coast to turn into National Forest land they only bought surface rights to the land. Below surface mineral rights were maintained by the former owners. Now the gas companies want access to National Forest land to drill for below surface natural gas that is privately owned. The forest service has been blocking permits with some legal card shuffling. This has been going on in Allegheny National Forest in Pennsylvania.

It appears the gas companies now have their eye on George Washington National Forest in Virginia.

I wonder how much of the public lands in the north east was bought from private land owners giving them the mineral rights below the surface. This seems like it has the potential to be a FUBAR.

Am I reading this correctly? Is anyone up on this issue?

Thorough explanation

News report
 
Craig, you read it right. It looks like the next argument will be over what constitutes reasonable access of the surface to drill by those owning the mineral rights.
 
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